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Old December 30th, 2010, 09:17 PM   #1961
DanielFigFoz
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There isn't one though.

I think there shoud be a South Coast Motorway, and a M40 near Oxford to the South Coast Motorway to make it a viable alterative to the M25
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Old December 30th, 2010, 10:34 PM   #1962
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Neither of those routes provide a viable alternative to the M25, as the traffic that would use them wouldn't use the M25 at the moment anyway, with the exception of the few people who would go via Brighton to go from South Hants to South East Kent (which compared to the traffic on the M25, would make no difference when it comes to congestion).

Not saying that there shouldn't be upgrades on these routes, I feel that there should be, just that there's a huge amount of hyperbole - especially that a South Coast Motorway ought to be the highest priority for building. Add to that poor arguments for these upgrades like "it'll relieve the M25" for upgrades on these routes and you can see why Map Guy and I aren't impressed with the idea.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 11:04 PM   #1963
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M25 is about the poorest beltway of any modern city in the world. It has 6 to 10 lanes, and is the only through motorway in a metropolitan area of over 10 million inhabitants. The vast majority traffic on M25 has a destination or origin in the London area. Instead of building expensive new motorways, it makes much more sense to massively upgrade the M25 to 12 or 14 lanes with a local-express setup. When they completed the M25 in the late 80's, they significantly underestimated the actual traffic demand, many sections were loaded to capacity within only a few years.
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Old December 31st, 2010, 01:35 AM   #1964
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
When they completed the M25 in the late 80's, they significantly underestimated the actual traffic demand,
Actually, they didn't, they knew it was going to to fill up, but couldn't justify building it on opening with the lanes they needed. Each section had to get past a public inquiry on it's own merits, not on the merits of the whole motorway.
Quote:
many sections were loaded to capacity within only a few years.
Almost the whole road within 10 years and about half within 5. Widening is massively behind meeting the predicted demand from the 1989 orbit study to boot - we're not dealing with 1997 traffic (well, we are, but not well). However the improvements off-M25 suggested in there have been built (A404 and A312 schemes between the M40 and M4, the A130 in Essex, the A331 and such like).

I'd argue that the problem isn't (J15-16 - which was the busiest bit when the Heathrow widening started, J5-7 and the bits under construction excluded) the lack of lanes, but the low capacity junctions. Then again, there's not enough mainline lanes at J11, 12 and 15. Junction 12 is especially bad.
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Old December 31st, 2010, 03:41 AM   #1965
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Widening to 12-14 lanes though will achieve nothing, you can see that anything larger than D3 in the UK fails to address the issues of congestion properly, lane discipline is poorer, and subsequently the liklihood of accidents and the delays they create only increases in probability.

The M31 would be a good project to consider to reduce the effects around the south-western part of the M25, taking through traffic for the M3 and M4 away quicker. Apart from that, there is little further option but to install ATM and minor upgrades to junctions to improve capacity, other than constructing completely new motorways a la the ringways plan, which is guaranteed to never happen in our lifetimes.
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Old December 31st, 2010, 04:26 AM   #1966
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Here's my take from living in both the US and the UK:

Just widening motorways is a load of bollocks and doesn't really do much. You could widen the M25 to 20 ******' lanes and it'd just be worse; more accidents, more weaving in/out, more traffic. Since car culture is here to stay for now and since the UK in general doesn't allow everyone to ditch their cars and use public transport, the existing arteries (motorways and major A roads) need to be relieved by doing the following (and sorry if I'm repeating myself from previous posts):

- Build a motorway connecting the M3, M4, M40, M1 and M11; a kind of "home counties" outer ring road, to take a lot of the traffic away from the M25.

- Extend the M27 from Dover to Plymouth, utilizing existing dual carriageways (mostly the A27).

- Upgrade the entire A34 to motorway standard from the M3 to the M40, with hard shoulder (this will reduce accidents).

- Upgrade the entire A1 to motorway standard, right up to Edinburgh (this will alleviate traffic on the M1 & M6 going to Scotland) and will provide the enormous Tyne & Wear metro area with a direct motorway link to London and Edinburgh.

- Extend the M11 to Norwich (because East Anglia has NO motorway)

- Finally build the damn West Midland "blue route" (M42), running from the M5 at Halesowen, around Stourbridge and Wolverhampton, connecting with the M54 and M6, where the M6 Toll meets the M6 (because traffic was ****ed up in the Black Country when I lived there almost 8 years ago!!).

- Aggressive measures need to be taken in terms of London. I don't give a shit who this offends - resurrect the plans from the 60's and 70's and "grow" them, creating a motorway inner ring road for London and extend ALL of the major motorways right into the centre of London, even if you have to bore god-damn tunnels to do so.

So those are my suggestions for motorway projects. None would really make much of an impact on the English countryside and all would actually alleviate traffic from existing motorways, avoiding stupid widening schemes that do nothing and just waste taxpayers' money. In turn, such roadbuilding would create jobs. If a country like Ireland can practically build an entire motorway network in less than half a decade, what's the damn excuse? The Netherlands should be a model to use - a great combination of decent roads and public transport infrastructure, working in tandem. The UK does not have enough motorways for a country of over 60 million people, enough said!
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Old December 31st, 2010, 09:02 AM   #1967
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I will make some further comments your post but first I see a major obstacle with big scale motorway building (which is quite needed). It's all this sentimental-romantic 'green and pleasent land' mentality. Cool, are the people who support this idea, prepaired to switch to public transport aka peasant wagons ? Probably they are first to complain, stuck in their SUVs, about traffic jams How to tackle that ? Just do it in face of major protests etc ?

London roads are underdeveloped big time. Ringway 2 should be revived and radial motorways. M12 was dropped only in late 90s.

Also business leaders say that the UK needs 'Roads for Prosperity' programme back.
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Old December 31st, 2010, 04:59 PM   #1968
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I agree with all the comfortably numb said, plus

-The M27 should Plymouth to Dover

-The North Wales Motorway should actually be built.

-There should be a London-Southend motorway

-The M2 should be extended to Dover to meet the M27 and north to at least the M25, to actually link it to the rest of the motorway network.

-The A23 south of Gatwick should be the M23

-The A3 should become the M3

-The M3 should become the M30

-There should be two motorway ring roads inside the M25, one around the congestion charge zone and one roughly following the Northern Circular Road and one a bit further out than the Southern Circular Road, the latter being the most urgent.

-Since the M10 number has been freed up, the A1 should become the M10.
THE WHOLE OF IT!!!

-The M4 should be extended to Pembroke

-There should be a M36 from Bournemouth to Salisbury and through to Bristol via Bath

-The M8 shoud be 3x3 and the M8 the whole way

-There should be an M50 from Stoke to Derby and Nottingham

-The M11 to Norwich would meet an M134 from Kings Lynn to Ipswich which would then go through Colchester and Chelmsford to London, to link Ipswich to the capital.

-The Cambridge branch of the M11, presumably renamed M14, would meet the M10 in Peterborough.

-The M180 should be extended to Grimsby in the East to the M62 at Huddersfield in the West.

-There should be a series of links between cities on the would be M10 to cities on the M6.

-The M65 should be extended through Bradford to the M10 to Leeds (also serving as a northern ringroad)
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Old December 31st, 2010, 07:23 PM   #1969
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielFigFoz View Post
I agree with all the comfortably numb said, plus

-The M27 should Plymouth to Dover

-The North Wales Motorway should actually be built.

-There should be a London-Southend motorway

-The M2 should be extended to Dover to meet the M27 and north to at least the M25, to actually link it to the rest of the motorway network.

-The A23 south of Gatwick should be the M23

-The A3 should become the M3

-The M3 should become the M30

-There should be two motorway ring roads inside the M25, one around the congestion charge zone and one roughly following the Northern Circular Road and one a bit further out than the Southern Circular Road, the latter being the most urgent.

-Since the M10 number has been freed up, the A1 should become the M10.
THE WHOLE OF IT!!!

-The M4 should be extended to Pembroke

-There should be a M36 from Bournemouth to Salisbury and through to Bristol via Bath

-The M8 shoud be 3x3 and the M8 the whole way

-There should be an M50 from Stoke to Derby and Nottingham

-The M11 to Norwich would meet an M134 from Kings Lynn to Ipswich which would then go through Colchester and Chelmsford to London, to link Ipswich to the capital.

-The Cambridge branch of the M11, presumably renamed M14, would meet the M10 in Peterborough.

-The M180 should be extended to Grimsby in the East to the M62 at Huddersfield in the West.

-There should be a series of links between cities on the would be M10 to cities on the M6.

-The M65 should be extended through Bradford to the M10 to Leeds (also serving as a northern ringroad)
Excellent ideas!

NW England is probably one of the best served regions, in terms of motorways. Manchester probably has the best motorway network surrounding it of any British city. The only real "flaw" up there is the fact that Manchester and Sheffield have no motorway link at all. Granted, building such a motorway would have to cut through the Pennines, but it could be landscaped and constructed in a way to cause minimal impact on the environment. It would also take a lot of heavy traffic off some of the smaller roads, along with reducing the traffic on the M1 & M62.

Also, it's kind of ridiculous that if you're driving from Manchester to get to the M6 south, you have to leave the motorway for a while before getting on to the M6 (I don't know if that's the case, but it's a bit of a pain if you're going from the M6 north to Manchester International Airport).
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Old December 31st, 2010, 08:47 PM   #1970
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Jesus Christ, I never noticed that! (I don't know the area, other than from maps etc)

I went on google maps and found out that the only direct Manchester-Sheffield link is:

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Old December 31st, 2010, 09:45 PM   #1971
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I drove there. It is really scenic road. I recommend to everyone. Unfortunately, driving there takes more time than going around through motorways. Anyway, I was driving longer.

Last edited by piotr71; December 31st, 2010 at 09:56 PM.
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Old December 31st, 2010, 10:33 PM   #1972
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielFigFoz View Post
I went on google maps and found out that the only direct Manchester-Sheffield link is:
Worth pointing out that this hasn't been the signed route for at least 40 years - you'd go over Woodhead (or back before it kept on sliding down the hill, the A625 Mam Tor route). The A57, like poitr said, is the scenic route between the two cities.

The big problem with a complete M67 is dealing with the traffic at the ends - the M67 is currently jammed at the M60 end with just local traffic and the M60 couldn't take the extra traffic easily - likewise the M1. Of course real-world stuff like this is seemingly ignored by you blue magic-marker fetishists, so I can't be bothered to explain why most of your wet dreams have no bearing in the real world.
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Old January 1st, 2011, 08:58 AM   #1973
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They will never ever build a motorway between Manchester and Sheffield unless it is put through a huge great tunnel under the National Park. It isn't just hippies and tree huggers who would object. Slicing one of the country's most popular National Parks in half with a motorway would get a whole lot more opposition than that. I'm not even going to bother explaining why, the answer is that obvious.
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Old January 1st, 2011, 04:39 PM   #1974
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It should be in a huge great tunnel
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Old January 1st, 2011, 08:13 PM   #1975
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxx☢Power View Post
Doesn't it (A57) get a lot of traffic even if it's not the fastest route? There's a certain type of people who will take the shortest route between two points (especially two cities) no matter what, and who won't be looking at the scenery but try to get there as fast as possible (i.e. reckless driving).. It does look like a very scenic area, that and the A628 and A623, and I bet there's a lot of people who wouldn't want a motorway built there..
Snake Pass (the A57) is a very popular route from Manchester to Sheffield. I've met people on more than one occasion who said that was the route they took, in the car. It's closed in poor weather (like the recent snows) and probably trucks take the primary route (particularly if they're going to industry on the east side of Sheffield), but it seems to be the preferred route of car drivers going from city to city.
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Old January 1st, 2011, 08:15 PM   #1976
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Such non-motorway routes are especially interesting to truck traffic because they don't have the speed advantage of the motorway like cars have. Traffic engineering also includes trucking! Many planners and politicians seem to forget that.
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Old January 1st, 2011, 08:48 PM   #1977
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The primary A road though the Pennines (A628) appears to be no larger at all
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Old January 1st, 2011, 09:13 PM   #1978
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comfortably Numb View Post
The Netherlands should be a model to use - a great combination of decent roads and public transport infrastructure, working in tandem.
Obviously this is a roads thread, but since you mentioned public transport we shouldn't forget Dutch cycling infrastructure. From what I can gather cycling accounts for around 35% of journeys under about 10 miles (which are the vast majority of all journeys anyway) and 26% of all journeys. Many of which would instead be made by car elsewhere.

Regarding British motorways, we do appear short but this is an overly simple way of looking at it. Motorway restrictions can essentially apply to any sort of road and so they become motorways (just look at the remaining and former single carriageway motorway spurs, some with just one lane in each direction, and the few urban motorways which are often of a very different nature to the rest). However, many British motorways, especially in England, are wider than foreign counterparts with two three lane carriageways, the Dutch and elsewhere mostly have two. AFAIK British motorways also tend to have more engineered alignments to minimise gradients/curves etc, especially on sliproads, and longer merges than some other countries. And indeed more grandiose service areas.

We do on the other hand tend to have rather more long distance, grade-separated dual carriageway roads for routes perhaps less busy or important, these seem to have become more popular in the last 20 years or so and tend to be lower standard than equivalent routes elsewhere, some rather unfit for purpose like parts of the A14. Of course they also have little immediately apparent distinction from other A roads or primary routes on signs or maps. Various theories seem to exist for this such as the lower design standards and costs, political connotations of the word motorway since Twyford Down etc and the environmentalist movement, and the 'lack of need' to provide local access routes since technically non-motorway traffic is often allowed on these roads, even though in practise it rarely uses them since the speeds and traffic levels would render it insane!

So yes I'm sure we could do with some more roads and less penny-pinching, just thought I'd point out the situation is a bit more complex than it might appear.
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Old January 1st, 2011, 09:36 PM   #1979
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Not all motorways in the UK are 3x2, and large parts aren't. They could build more that aren't. The fact is that the current road network is not enough to cope with the amount of traffic.

Indeed as you say, there are no "single carriageway way motorways" or expressways in the UK, with the exception of the Walton Summit Motorway.


EDIT:

Also, there is a lack of exits on British motorways

Last edited by DanielFigFoz; January 2nd, 2011 at 10:48 PM.
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Old January 3rd, 2011, 02:59 PM   #1980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
M25 is about the poorest beltway of any modern city in the world.

it makes much more sense to massively upgrade the M25 to 12 or 14 lanes with a local-express setup.
1st point Not true...

Just adding lanes solves nothing. If you make a road bigger then cars will just fill it. You could make it 20 lanes and it would still be jammed. If you made the M25 as wide as Toronto's 401, it would just like the 401 still be jammed...
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