Bridgewater Place | Com | 110m | 32fl

[Leeds No.1]

If it is caused by the building, it's probably worsened by the fact there are unusually low-rise buildings around it meaning wind is forced to change patterns very quickly. Most tall buildings are surrounded by mid-rises which presumably help disperse the wind and act as a break.

[Gherkin]

Which side of the tower did the lorry blow over? If the wind tunnel test showed there to be no danger then it's just an unlucky, freak accident. Most skyscrapers create some sort of wind problems, but this kind of thing is extremely rare.

No one seems to be questioning the design of the lorry.

[Talisker]

I walk past BWP every day and the wind is certainly a problem. There have been some occasions when I've almost been blown out into the road as cars are going past. Seams to be a problem with the specific design and location rather than building height per se. I lived in Vancouver and never experienced problems with wind among the skyscrapers there.

[Aaronj09]

I cannot believe the council are facing charges for corporate manslaughter.. I'm not denying wind is a problem but it isn't like they built the building for the purpose of causing death to someone.

[Skychaser 2005]

Originally Posted by Aaronj09

I cannot believe the council are facing charges for corporate manslaughter.. I'm not denying wind is a problem but it isn't like they built the building for the purpose of causing death to someone.

What they didn't do was to make sure the wind tests made before the building was constructed would not lead to such a major wind problem. There is an inherrant design fault with BWP which could have been rectified sooner.

[Talisker]

I'm sure there were wind tests done though, and I remember reading concerns on the civic trust website about it. The plans are available online at http://plandocs.leeds.gov.uk/WAM/sho...r=20/313/03/FU. No sign of any wind tests there, but could be in another file. The plans show a large spire, which was not built. You can also measure the elevation using the floor-to-floor heights as 107.1m on the tallest side (west). Try it yourself if you don't believe me

[Immunda Leodis]

Originally Posted by Gherkin

Which side of the tower did the lorry blow over? If the wind tunnel test showed there to be no danger then it's just an unlucky, freak accident. Most skyscrapers create some sort of wind problems, but this kind of thing is extremely rare.

No one seems to be questioning the design of the lorry.

Or how its load was packed and secured in the back...

[Lad 2011]

That is ridiculous! multiple trucks turned over in Yorkshire in them gales, are they going to blame Bridgewater place and Leeds city council for them too? we all know tall buildings cause wind tunnels but to make out Bridgewater place is some how a death trap and doing Leeds city council for manslaughter is beyond me, don't get me wrong i truly feel sorry for the guy who got killed but i don't believe that accident was all caused by Bridgewater place.

[Shiny_Dave]

Driver Paul Bartle's lorry landed on Mr Slaney and a 22-year-old woman who was also seriously injured.

A witness told the inquest it was like something out of a "twister film".

Mr Bartle told Leeds Coroner's Court he had made his way to the city centre to escape gale-force winds and was driving past Bridgewater Place.

He said: "I was doing about 20mph, the next thing I remember is I'm on my side.

"I floated through the air. It just carried me - it was just like a hot-air balloon going up."

Witness Andrew McKenzie told the inquest he and other bystanders, along with a team of workmen with a digger, helped lift the lorry off Mr Slaney and the woman.

Mr McKenzie said: "A soon as it [the lorry] came out of the shadow of the building, that was when it all went wrong.

"It was mad - it got lifted up like a bit of paper and got thrown across the road."
The overturned lorry Mr Slaney died of chest injuries

Another witness, Paul Pheasey, said in a statement read out in court: "It was as if to compare something to a twister film shown on television."

BBC

[Yorkshire Boy]

Originally Posted by Lad 2011

don't get me wrong i truly feel sorry for the guy who got killed but i don't believe that accident was all caused by Bridgewater place.

What was it caused by then? Would you like to offer a reinforced contrasting academic view on urban microclimates?

[Gherkin]

I think his point was that wind blows over lorries all the time, but rarely in built up areas. Bridgewater Place may have made it worse, but lorries are not designed to be driven in the wind.

[fozzy]

i agree!!!

[Lad 2011]

I meant they seem to be putting all the blame on Bridgewater place and thoses behind it, when in reality it was not all down to Bridgewater place that accident happened, for instance gales of up to 70mph were blowing across Leeds and Yorkshire that day with lorries over turning up and down the county, any high sided vehicle cannot handle them sort of winds hitting it side on they just simple tip over and get blown about, now what happend down near Bridgewater place was no different to what happend anywhere else in Yorkshire that day, the only difference was it cost someone their life. Its always been a windy location near that junction since i can remember even before the likes of Bridgewater place came along, its very open to the elements due to all the buildings been so spaced out and so low rise, Bridgewater place is the only tall buildings around that end so any wind blowing across hits it and changes patterns quickly like Leeds no 1 said, the area around Bridgewater place needs sortings urgently so nothing like this will happen again.

[Yorkshire Boy]

Originally Posted by Lad 2011

now what happend down near Bridgewater place was no different to what happend anywhere else in Yorkshire that day, the only difference was it cost someone their life. Its always been a windy location near that junction since i can remember even before the likes of Bridgewater place came along, its very open to the elements due to all the buildings been so spaced out and so low rise, Bridgewater place is the only tall buildings around that end so any wind blowing across hits it and changes patterns quickly like Leeds no 1 said, the area around Bridgewater place needs sortings urgently so nothing like this will happen again.

Honestly, I'm sorry but I can't work out (no offence here, but you'll probably be offended anyway) whether your more ignorant or stupid.

It WAS different to what happened elsewhere in Yorkshire on THAT day. Sure, you might get gusts in places like the M62 on Saddleworth Moor for instance but this is different, a hell of a lot different.

The turbulance caused by BWP is unique and is caused by a very badly designed building with barely any consideration for it's surroundings, as such you're dragging highwinds from a greater altitude down from a considerable height onto a very open space. Therefore, any high winds observed in the local area are exacerbated dramatically in one very specific area.

You say the area needs 'urgently' sorting out but the only way that could possibly happen is for the tallest building in Yorkshire to be flatterned or multiple highrises be built around it with a gradual low in height of structures around them - neither of which are going to happen any time soon.

This was extremely poor foresight on behalf of the developer and the council combined, both are responsible.

The only way the urban microclimate that exhibits high winds around there can be mitigated is with a SHIT load of tall trees and a complete restructuring of the urban design in that area.

I would highly support getting an academic who studies urban microclimates in great detail and has a track-record of providing recommendations down there pronto, before we see another loss of life.

[Aaronj09]

Good post Yorkshire Boy.

Leeds is very wind prone, it's located on the eastern slopes of the Pennines so is subject to 'lee-wave' gusts, winds that travel down the Pennines, gain speed, and then get funneled in the narrow Aire Valley, and the urban landscape of Leeds only makes the winds stronger. In fact, in 1990, Leeds had a wind speed of 98 mph, to my knowledge only Scottish cities have had wind speeds higher then this.

Still, I don't think there's any need to take the council to court.

[Shiny_Dave]

Originally Posted by Shiny_Dave

BBC

"I floated through the air. It just carried me - it was just like a hot-air balloon going up."

"It was mad - it got lifted up like a bit of paper and got thrown across the road."

The coroner maybe considering whether the above could have occurred or did occur before it was built.

From 2008

The latter factor in relation to Bridgewater Place has already been commented on because of a wind tunnel effect that seems to have been created that just about lifts people off their feet on a blustery day.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/leeds/content/a..._feature.shtml

[Lad 2011]

Originally Posted by Yorkshire Boy

Honestly, I'm sorry but I can't work out (no offence here, but you'll probably be offended anyway) whether your more ignorant or stupid.

It WAS different to what happened elsewhere in Yorkshire on THAT day. Sure, you might get gusts in places like the M62 on Saddleworth Moor for instance but this is different, a hell of a lot different.

The turbulance caused by BWP is unique and is caused by a very badly designed building with barely any consideration for it's surroundings, as such you're dragging highwinds from a greater altitude down from a considerable height onto a very open space. Therefore, any high winds observed in the local area are exacerbated dramatically in one very specific area.

You say the area needs 'urgently' sorting out but the only way that could possibly happen is for the tallest building in Yorkshire to be flatterned or multiple highrises be built around it with a gradual low in height of structures around them - neither of which are going to happen any time soon.

This was extremely poor foresight on behalf of the developer and the council combined, both are responsible.

The only way the urban microclimate that exhibits high winds around there can be mitigated is with a SHIT load of tall trees and a complete restructuring of the urban design in that area.

I would highly support getting an academic who studies urban microclimates in great detail and has a track-record of providing recommendations down there pronto, before we see another loss of life.

I'm sorry but the turbulance caused by Bridgewater place is not all that unique and you could put any tall building in Bridgewater places's position and you'll get the same scenario when gale force winds of up to 70mph are belting the side of it, itsdefinitely not the best location for such a tall building especially in the areas current state but am sure this could be rectified without having to build other buildings around Bridgewater place.

And as for forsight i'm sure they did tests before the building went up so i don't think getting Leeds city council and others behind Bridgewater place done for manslaughter is right.

[Mikeyp]

that's always been a windy spot prior to Bridgewater Place going up

[Shiny_Dave]

Daljit Singh, deputy area planning officer at the council since January 2009, told the court that it had taken measures to protect pedestrians by erecting barriers, but he had no knowledge of whether anything had been done to protect high-sided vehicles, such as lorries, from the wind.

A report containing a wind assessment was commissioned during planning stages in 2001. After this report, the building was moved two metres in its design and another wind assessment was not carried out until 2008, after it had been built.

When asked whether the initial report was out of date after the plans changed, Mr Singh, said: “I don’t know. That depends on how much the building has moved and the level of the change.”

YP

[Lad 2011]

Originally Posted by Yorkshire Boy

Honestly, I'm sorry but I can't work out (no offence here, but you'll probably be offended anyway) whether your more ignorant or stupid.

It WAS different to what happened elsewhere in Yorkshire on THAT day. Sure, you might get gusts in places like the M62 on Saddleworth Moor for instance but this is different, a hell of a lot different.

The turbulance caused by BWP is unique and is caused by a very badly designed building with barely any consideration for it's surroundings, as such you're dragging highwinds from a greater altitude down from a considerable height onto a very open space. Therefore, any high winds observed in the local area are exacerbated dramatically in one very specific area.

You say the area needs 'urgently' sorting out but the only way that could possibly happen is for the tallest building in Yorkshire to be flatterned or multiple highrises be built around it with a gradual low in height of structures around them - neither of which are going to happen any time soon.

This was extremely poor foresight on behalf of the developer and the council combined, both are responsible.

The only way the urban microclimate that exhibits high winds around there can be mitigated is with a SHIT load of tall trees and a complete restructuring of the urban design in that area.

I would highly support getting an academic who studies urban microclimates in great detail and has a track-record of providing recommendations down there pronto, before we see another loss of life.

Professor Stephen Garrity, from the University of Leeds’ School of Civil Engineering, is unsure.

“I don’t know if these are freak winds,” he said. “They actually happen fairly consistently, though not every day.

“But it’s like any event in nature: We talk about a one in 10,000 year flood – but that could happen tomorrow.

“So we may have had a one-in-100-years wind gust there, and it just happened early on in the life of the building. It might never happen again, it might happen again three or four times, it’s very difficult to predict.”

But should those who constructed the building have had some sense of the potential dangers?

“Even using computer modelling and wind tunnel modelling, you may only be able to identify wind tunnel areas once the structure is built.” he said. “Models can’t always pick up on localised effects.”

One of the most site-specific issues is that of the solitary location of Bridgewater Place. It creates such an extreme effect partly because there are few skyscrapers surrounding it to take some of the force of any wind blasts.

Which is why cities like New York have relatively few problems despite having so many tall buildings.

Prof Garritty said: “In somewhere like Manhattan there’s a huge density of high-rise buildings so there’s very little space for the wind to permeate and flow through. Because of the density it flows over the mass of buildings.

“Whereas in Leeds there are more open spaces, and when you get wind coming off the corners of buildings it gets buffeted around, you get what’s called ‘vortex shedding’ – you could call it rough wind.

“That wind can get blown down, then blown horizontally and that’s what appears to have happened in this instance.”

So should we panic about the threat of a recurring vortex?

“I don’t think so,” said Prof Garrity “The idea of a vortex sounds very dramatic but it’s not going to sweep across Leeds destroying the city.

“I think the lorry just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and the problems could potentially be solved just with some minor landscaping or minor alterations to Bridgewater Place.

“Something as simple as, say, building a wall by the pavement could stop this downward wind hitting the ground and moving horizontally onto the road.

“Although this is something we’re new to in Leeds, partly because tall buildings are a new phenomenon for us, they aren’t exclusive to Leeds. They can happen anywhere and probably do happen everywhere.

“It’s very easy to look at things like this with the benefit of hindsight but it’s very difficult and complicated to predict these things.