daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 14th, 2012, 03:06 AM   #261
Festin
Changeable constant
 
Festin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Antarctica, North Pole
Posts: 3,015
Likes (Received): 1458

Quote:
Originally Posted by metasmurf View Post

This should be best solution
Quote:
Originally Posted by x-type View Post
This should also be excepted if there is no possibly to upgrade to first one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corvinus View Post

This is just crazy hehe

But in all the cases it seem to be enough space to upgrade it to an expressway 2x2 with a barrier in the middle. That should be the main solution...

Of course many countries do not change this because it is not worth the money maybe or because there is no room for it in the budget the coming years. But those kind of roads are dangerous should be more important to the ministries of transports.
Festin no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 14th, 2012, 03:10 AM   #262
shpirtkosova
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,373
Likes (Received): 6

I think 2x1 roads can be very dangerous, especially when overtaking.
shpirtkosova no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 16th, 2012, 04:42 PM   #263
Fender56
Registered User
 
Fender56's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Esbjerg, Denmark
Posts: 1,375
Likes (Received): 528

The profile of the planned 2+1 highway A11 in Denmark, between Esbjerg and the Danish/German border, will be like this.:



77 km long, pricetag aprox dkr 2,4 billion.

__________________
Always look at the bright side of life....
Fender56 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 16th, 2012, 07:03 PM   #264
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,595
Likes (Received): 19389

€ 4.15 million per kilometer. Not bad.
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2012, 11:52 AM   #265
snowdog
Speed freak
 
snowdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Capelle ad ijssel
Posts: 969
Likes (Received): 92

Tbh I prefer the 1x2 with shoulder configuration like in Poland, it allows for a higher average speed due to ease of overtake, most cars move to the shoulders if they notice someone wants to pass them.

That said, there are many reckless overtakes and on a long trip you're nearly guaranteed to have to brake for an overtaker from the other direction. There should just be more enforcement for actual reckless overtakes. Seeing THREE people beside each other is not rare, some idiot overtaking someone who already overtaking another happens way to often!

But overall, on 2+1, you are bound get stuck behind some truck or grandpa on the 1 lane bits, while on 1x2+shoulders you can usually continue to drive on cruise control!

Ideally any busy road should be at least 2x2... The problem with many of these roads in Poland, is they handle traffic way in excess of what a 1x2 road should.
snowdog no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2012, 01:01 PM   #266
geogregor
Registered User
 
geogregor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: London
Posts: 15,520
Likes (Received): 19156

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
Tbh I prefer the 1x2 with shoulder configuration like in Poland, it allows for a higher average speed due to ease of overtake, most cars move to the shoulders if they notice someone wants to pass them.

That said, there are many reckless overtakes and on a long trip you're nearly guaranteed to have to brake for an overtaker from the other direction. There should just be more enforcement for actual reckless overtakes. Seeing THREE people beside each other is not rare, some idiot overtaking someone who already overtaking another happens way to often!

But overall, on 2+1, you are bound get stuck behind some truck or grandpa on the 1 lane bits, while on 1x2+shoulders you can usually continue to drive on cruise control!

Ideally any busy road should be at least 2x2... The problem with many of these roads in Poland, is they handle traffic way in excess of what a 1x2 road should.
You are absolutely wrong!
These wide shoulder 1x2 roads in Poland are one of the most dangerous in Europe due to reckless overtaking you wrote about. More policing won't help, it is just a bad design for the heavily trafficked routes They should be all changed to 2+1 where possible.
You might get stuck behind someone slow for a bit but then you can easily and safely overtake on two lane stretch in your direction.
geogregor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2012, 01:54 PM   #267
snowdog
Speed freak
 
snowdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Capelle ad ijssel
Posts: 969
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
You are absolutely wrong!
These wide shoulder 1x2 roads in Poland are one of the most dangerous in Europe due to reckless overtaking you wrote about. More policing won't help, it is just a bad design for the heavily trafficked routes They should be all changed to 2+1 where possible.
You might get stuck behind someone slow for a bit but then you can easily and safely overtake on two lane stretch in your direction.
What is wrong ? My opinion ? Yes I know they are very dangerous, but as I said, I can hold a more constant higher speed on them on average!

2+1 will not significantly increase the roads capacity if the direction is alternating, only if it is 2 lanes in 1 direction the whole way...

I'm not opposed to 2+1, but I don't mind the Polish roads with shoulders either.

The problem is that many of these roads, need to be 2x2 in the first place.
Before the A2 between the border and Nowy Tomysl was finished, massive jams sometimes formed on DK92. For low traffic these roads would be fine I think.
snowdog no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2012, 02:24 PM   #268
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,595
Likes (Received): 19389

Major Polish routes need to be replaced by 2x2 motorways. However, the Danish example carries much less traffic so 2+1 is adequate. Too bad for racing boy here that he can't pass for a minute.
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2012, 02:52 PM   #269
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,803
Likes (Received): 615

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
Yes I know they are very dangerous, but as I said, I can hold a more constant higher speed on them on average!
Any non-enforcing arrangement is dangerous if the traffic culture is primitive.

Of course, a 3-lane system is fatal, if there is no discipline regarding to the middle lane. But a 2+1 does not need to be like that. Finland changed the rules some 15 years ago: it is not allowed to overtake in the "opposite" direction. The traffic is rather disciplined in Finland, and this rule is usually obeyed. No major problems related to the 2+1 roads. The situation might be different in the areas east of the Oder-Neisse line.


2+1 stretch on route 3/E12, Hämeenkyrö

Quote:
2+1 will not significantly increase the roads capacity if the direction is alternating, only if it is 2 lanes in 1 direction the whole way...
Their purpose is not increase the road capacity but the average speed by providing oppotunities to overtake the slow heavy traffic.
MattiG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2012, 03:21 PM   #270
snowdog
Speed freak
 
snowdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Capelle ad ijssel
Posts: 969
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
Their purpose is not increase the road capacity but the average speed by providing oppotunities to overtake the slow heavy traffic.
My point is more, that on 1x2 roads, where YOU ARE allowed to overtake at any time, the average speed is even higher, provided traffic allows it...

The only advantage over 1x2 wide roads with shoulders, is safety...

The situation changes of course if overtaking is prohibited, like on many provincial roads in Holland, then I'd take 2+1 over 1x2 any time!

Last edited by snowdog; December 17th, 2012 at 04:23 PM.
snowdog no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2012, 04:45 PM   #271
Aphelion
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 170
Likes (Received): 20

In my experience, roads like this (http://goo.gl/maps/ebSXV) in Sweden are sometimes treated as having 2+2 lanes. The shoulders on these (often built 50 years ago or so) roads are many times not stable enough to repeatedly carry trucks who move out to let others overtake.

Many with a somewhat high AADT have already been made 2+1. The example in my link will be replaced by a motorway adjacent to it, thus no upgrade has been made.
Aphelion no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2012, 05:54 PM   #272
geogregor
Registered User
 
geogregor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: London
Posts: 15,520
Likes (Received): 19156

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
What is wrong ? My opinion ? Yes I know they are very dangerous, but as I said, I can hold a more constant higher speed on them on average!

2+1 will not significantly increase the roads capacity if the direction is alternating, only if it is 2 lanes in 1 direction the whole way...

I'm not opposed to 2+1, but I don't mind the Polish roads with shoulders either.

The problem is that many of these roads, need to be 2x2 in the first place.
Before the A2 between the border and Nowy Tomysl was finished, massive jams sometimes formed on DK92. For low traffic these roads would be fine I think.
For the low traffic roads the 1x2 format with wide shoulders is perfect. Many of the US highways across Dakotas, Kansas and other sparsely populated regions use such format and they are real pleasure to drive. But traffic there is minuscule comparing to major Polish roads.
If we can't afford 2x2 somwhere then 1+2 is always a safer option for heavy traffic than 1x2 with wide shoulder. Even if it slows down some occasional boy racer.
geogregor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2012, 07:47 PM   #273
Sponsor
Registered User
 
Sponsor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Poznań
Posts: 8,583

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
My point is more, that on 1x2 roads, where YOU ARE allowed to overtake at any time, the average speed is even higher
High average speed and unlimited overtaking matters when driving long distances - then you simply pick a motorway.
Sponsor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2012, 07:49 PM   #274
ElviS77
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 564
Likes (Received): 54

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
The only advantage over 1x2 wide roads with shoulders, is safety...

The situation changes of course if overtaking is prohibited, like on many provincial roads in Holland, then I'd take 2+1 over 1x2 any time!
The first point is, in my opinion, far more valid than any other. Public roads should be as safe as possible.

The second is an "easy fix" in terms of safety. A busy non-divided road is by definition not particularly safe, and the road authorities are likely to impose simple measures supposed to combat this. Bans on overtaking and reduced speed limits are the simplest ones. I prefer a 100 kph 2+1 to an 80 kph wide 2-lane any day. It's far safer, and - for reasonably law-abiding drivers - generally faster, too.
ElviS77 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2012, 10:23 PM   #275
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,803
Likes (Received): 615

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
My point is more, that on 1x2 roads, where YOU ARE allowed to overtake at any time, the average speed is even higher, provided traffic allows it...
Show me an 1+1 road where overtaking is allowed and possible at any time.
MattiG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2012, 11:01 PM   #276
xrtn2
Registered User
 
xrtn2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Valadares, Brazil
Posts: 19,672
Likes (Received): 17490



+1

In Brazil 2+1 reduced car accidents in these old 1+1 sections.


Last edited by xrtn2; December 17th, 2012 at 11:13 PM.
xrtn2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2012, 11:42 PM   #277
Blackraven
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Makati (in the Philippines)
Posts: 2,294
Likes (Received): 234

IMHO, I think the number of lanes should be equal on both the left side and on the right side. In short, perfect symmetry (what you do on the left, you do on the right)

Hehe
Blackraven no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 18th, 2012, 12:22 AM   #278
snowdog
Speed freak
 
snowdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Capelle ad ijssel
Posts: 969
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sponsor View Post
High average speed and unlimited overtaking matters when driving long distances - then you simply pick a motorway.
What motorway ( regarding Poland!) ?

Many routes don't have motorways, eg. Warszawa-Lublin, or until recently, most of the route Swiecko-Warszawa; Nowy Tomysl-Lodz (the A2 bit) was a breeze to drive but the other parts were traffic hell, completely congested DK roads...

Secondly, why would high average speed only matter on long trips, saving 2 minutes on 10 short trips is the same as saving 20 on a long one!
Quote:
Public roads should be as safe as possible.
Okay, so you're for a speed limit of 30km/h on all roads ?
( yes I exaggerate to make my point, my line of freedom vs safety is a bit less towards safety than average...)


My opinion is still:

2+1 is better than 1x2 with prohibited overtaking.
1x2 with overtaking allowed is fine, provided it doesn't have much traffic.
If traffic is to heavy on a 1x2 road to comfortably overtake, then 2x2 is necessary...

Last edited by snowdog; December 18th, 2012 at 12:34 AM.
snowdog no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 18th, 2012, 02:31 AM   #279
Positronn
Registered User
 
Positronn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Joinville / SC
Posts: 11,914
Likes (Received): 2728

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
My point is more, that on 1x2 roads, where YOU ARE allowed to overtake at any time, the average speed is even higher, provided traffic allows it...

The only advantage over 1x2 wide roads with shoulders, is safety...

The situation changes of course if overtaking is prohibited, like on many provincial roads in Holland, then I'd take 2+1 over 1x2 any time!
This might be true only on straight and flat sections. The traffic obviously, influences on how often you can overtake. Even in flat, but curvy stretches, you can't overtake at any time; depending on the road design, you will never be able to overtake. This is the point, IMO. But if the situation is the following, which one would you prefer, considering the same width and probably similar construction costs: 2+1 with shoulder and no central barrier, or 2+1 with central barrier without shoulders? In Brazilian roads, you can overtake in the 1 lane direction if there is a dashed painting on the ground.
Positronn no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 18th, 2012, 09:45 AM   #280
Arbenit
Registered User
 
Arbenit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,720
Likes (Received): 372

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fender56 View Post
The profile of the planned 2+1 highway A11 in Denmark, between Esbjerg and the Danish/German border, will be like this.:



77 km long, pricetag aprox dkr 2,4 billion.

I wonder, perhaps it would be better if the profile of this road would be 2x2 without these 1.5 m wide hardsholders? And the road would have still the same width 4 X 3.75m =15m + 1m central separation = 16m.
__________________
Don't feed the trolls

Brilliant minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people

lmpanp liked this post
Arbenit no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium