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Old April 9th, 2010, 11:13 AM   #81
Spikespiegel
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Quote:
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Here in Denmark, the leading political party Venstre, has recently presented some plans for a number of roads, to be extended to 2+1 roads, see map below. Now awaiting money from the parliament.



Route 14 is already a 2+1 road.
The AADT for the part after Holbækmotorvejen is 18.000, so I would guess that the stretch before it is over 20.000.
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Old April 9th, 2010, 11:22 AM   #82
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imo, 2+1 roads are not an "in-between" solution for highways and motorways, but to provide a comfortable flow with safe passing possibilities on the somewhat busier long-distances routes.

Above 10,000 AADT, passing already becomes treacherous on two-lane highways, however, one can also choose for a motorway from that point. There are enough examples of motorways in Europe that carry between 10,000 and 25,000 AADT. For example if you want to stimulate the regional rural economy, a motorway may be a better choice than a 2+1 road, although this mostly seems to be an issue in southern Europe (France, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Greece).

2+1 roads, however, do not have a higher capacity than regular two-lane roads. The one-lane sections are still representative for capacity. 2+1 roads are a bad choice above 20,000 - 25,000 AADT. You can better go for the motorway then.
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Old April 9th, 2010, 11:28 AM   #83
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The main problem on the Route 11 between Ribe and Tønder is not that the road is overloaded with traffic. But all the heavy traffic and a lot of tourists have to go through a lot of small towns. So they have to make new roads around those towns anyway.!

I would love a new A11 from Varde to Tønder, to look like this Dutch example.:



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Old April 9th, 2010, 11:33 AM   #84
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N50 Zwolle - Kampen

I made a better picture and put it on Google Earth:
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Old April 9th, 2010, 11:37 AM   #85
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N50 Zwolle - Kampen
Chris, do you have any idea of the construction costs of a 1+1 versus a 2+1 versus a 2+2 road.?

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Old April 9th, 2010, 11:51 AM   #86
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If i'm right and "Årsdøgntrafik 2008 i 1000 køretøjer pr. døgn" means ~"1000 vehicles per day" then AADT is lower than I expected (of course, except road sections near urban areas). Truck count seems to be like like 10-15%, not more - it means, that there shouldn't be great problems with overtaking them. I guess that roads with such AADT could simply remain the same without any changes. That's why I don't understand the point of need to rebuild these roads.

Is it expected to have large increase of AADT? Or maybe fatality rate is too high? Or maybe elections are coming?
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Old April 9th, 2010, 12:35 PM   #87
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I looked up some data for Sweden, and a major 2+1-road near where I live has an AADT of about 11,000. For the motorway nearby, the E4, AADT is about 25,000. If you like, you can check for yourself here: Link to AADT on vv.se

This a picture of the 2+1-road:
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Old April 9th, 2010, 01:16 PM   #88
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Most 2+1 roads were not made with the intention of a high AADT.

In Sweden, the roads originally had one 3,5 metre wide lane going in each direction, with a 3 metre shoulder on either side. But as cars got more reliable, you didn't need the shoulders anymore, so these roads were converted to 2+1 roads at no cost. The center barrier was added later.

In Denmark, most 2+1 roads were built some 30-40 years ago. Today we have more traffic than the designers of those roads ever dreamed of, so some roads have been downgraded to normal roads, as the traffic flows smoother on a congested normal road than a congested 2+1 road. An example of this is the stretch between Osted and Roskilde of Primary Route 14.


In a country like Sweden or Jutland () 2+1 roads in rural areas are a great idea, cause of the low traffic, and great distance between large urban areas. On Sealand (or most other European area with a high population density), it's not a good idea, as congestion will just kill the road.

I must say that I am a huge fanboy of the Swedish 2+1 roads. They are well-maintained, smooth, safe and they go through interesting landscapes (lots of forests), whereas the motorways in Sweden are very dull.

Last edited by Spikespiegel; April 9th, 2010 at 01:23 PM.
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Old April 9th, 2010, 01:22 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jevpls View Post
If i'm right and "Årsdøgntrafik 2008 i 1000 køretøjer pr. døgn" means ~"1000 vehicles per day" then AADT is lower than I expected (of course, except road sections near urban areas). Truck count seems to be like like 10-15%, not more - it means, that there shouldn't be great problems with overtaking them. I guess that roads with such AADT could simply remain the same without any changes. That's why I don't understand the point of need to rebuild these roads.

Is it expected to have large increase of AADT? Or maybe fatality rate is too high? Or maybe elections are coming?
The simple reason for new roads, are on these stretches these mainroads runs through a lot of small and narrow towns, furthermore farmers use the same roads and brings everything to a standstill. Under such conditions you cannot run a modern society, and new roads like 2+1 are neccesary.

Another important issue is for Denmark these years, are the closing of alot of hospitals, which makes it very important that rescue vehicles can get through the traffic, without problems. The nearest hospital with 24 hour service in the future, will mostly be 100km away, from the far most inhabitants.

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Last edited by Fender56; April 9th, 2010 at 02:04 PM.
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Old April 9th, 2010, 02:34 PM   #90
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Have you got safety barriers for 2+1 roads in Denmark?

If not then it's easier for rescue teams to make U-turns when necessary. If you got such barriers then you can't forget to make special "doors" after some kilometers to allow rescue vehicles to turn around. Quote form Irish document about 2+1 roads:

"To allow for emergencies and for
maintenance after an impact, the barrier assembly,
as tested in accordance with EN 1317 part 2, shall
be capable of being dismantled and reassembled
by two or three people without hand power tools
or machinery. If a contraflow situation is required
(after an accident or breakdown for example) the
system shall be capable of allowing the vertical or
support members to be removed and the
longitudinal members to be lowered to ground
level for a minimum distance of 17 m at any or
multiple points along its length to let vehicles pass
over uninhibited and safely. The system shall be
such that it can be reassembled manually without
the use of hand power tools or machinery back to
its original position and assembly, as tested in
accordance with EN 1317 part 2."
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Old April 9th, 2010, 02:45 PM   #91
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Quote:
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Have you got safety barriers for 2+1 roads in Denmark?
We don't have barriers on the 2+1 roads on Sealand. I don't know about Jutland, though!
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Old April 9th, 2010, 04:02 PM   #92
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Sweden has build almost 2000 km of 2+1 roads. 330 km is Autostrasse and 1660 km is ordinary highways.
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Old April 9th, 2010, 04:03 PM   #93
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We don't have barriers on the 2+1 roads on Sealand. I don't know about Jutland, though!
Only the extension of the Djursland Motorway (route 15) north of Aarhus comes to mind. Part of the extension from Løgten to Tåstrup is 2+1 including barrier. Exept for that there are not many 2+1 i Jutland.

A couple of new 2+1 is under under construction or planning. They include Bredsten-Vandel (west of Vejle towards Billund) and route 16 south of Randers (from E45 going east). Both will be 2+1 expressways (motortrafikveje) [B]without[B] barrier.

2+1, particularly 2+1 with barrers, are much more difficult to implement in Denmark, including Jutland, than in Sweden. There is a lot more of farm exits, connecting roads etc. and they are difficult to include in a 2+1 lay-out, especially with barriers.

Thats why 2+1 are more feasible on new expressways with few exits and no crossroads, where AADT is considered to low for motorway standard. That is the case with Bredsten- Bredsten (projected AADT 12.000-14.000) and the extension of the Holbæk motorway towards Vig (AADT also 14.000)
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Old April 9th, 2010, 06:30 PM   #94
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This is one example of why I prefer North American road paint to Europe's. Accidents are just as common on 1x2 as any other non-separated road.

The line that divides the road is always yellow. If ever there is a yellow line on your right, you know that you're in the wrong. With everything being white in Europe, I can see how easily people could be confused. If ever you're confused about whether you're on the right side of the road, all you have to do is look at the road; if white is on your right and yellow is on your left, you're fine.
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Old April 9th, 2010, 06:33 PM   #95
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Quote:
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This is one example of why I prefer North American road paint to Europe's. Accidents are just as common on 1x2 as any other non-separated road.

The line that divides the road is always yellow. If ever there is a yellow line on your right, you know that you're in the wrong. With everything being white in Europe, I can see how easily people could be confused. If ever you're confused about whether you're on the right side of the road, all you have to do is look at the road; if white is on your right and yellow is on your left, you're fine.
What?

The number of accidents are MUCH smaller on 2+1 roads than normal roads.

As for the paint, a double line divides the driving directions where no barrier is present. Yellow paint here is used during construction work.
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Old April 9th, 2010, 08:12 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spikespiegel View Post
The number of accidents are MUCH smaller on 2+1 roads than normal roads.
I didn't say they weren't.

Quote:
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As for the paint, a double line divides the driving directions where no barrier is present. Yellow paint here is used during construction work.
I know that. I didn't say it wasn't used for that.

From what people have been saying and showing in here, it seems to me that 2x1 roads in Europe tend to be rather dangerous and confusing at times. Many people have linked pictures showing how dangerous some 2x1 roads can be and the great lengths that have been put into building them safely. Note the divided 2x1 roads that have been mentioned (and shown). All these measures are put in place to keep the directions separated.

When the lines are all the same colour, it's understandable that people become confused from time to time.

That is why I said I believe if directional division lines were yellow, people would always know which side of the road belongs to them - which is how it is in North America. Like I said, if you're uncertain about your side of the road, all you have to do is look to your left. If you see yellow, you're safe.
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Old April 9th, 2010, 08:34 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by CptSchmidt View Post
That is why I said I believe if directional division lines were yellow, people would always know which side of the road belongs to them - which is how it is in North America. Like I said, if you're uncertain about your side of the road, all you have to do is look to your left. If you see yellow, you're safe.
I think that is besides the point. Surely if you have a relatively major route, it is safer to have a physical separation between the lanes of traffic traveling in opposite direction.
Even if a person can more easily distinguish a yellow divider line, it doesn't help them if a truck veers into them from the other direction!
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Old April 9th, 2010, 09:42 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSchmidt View Post
This is one example of why I prefer North American road paint to Europe's. Accidents are just as common on 1x2 as any other non-separated road.

The line that divides the road is always yellow. If ever there is a yellow line on your right, you know that you're in the wrong. With everything being white in Europe, I can see how easily people could be confused. If ever you're confused about whether you're on the right side of the road, all you have to do is look at the road; if white is on your right and yellow is on your left, you're fine.
in fact, yellow is better
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Old April 9th, 2010, 09:55 PM   #99
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Chris, do you have any idea of the construction costs of a 1+1 versus a 2+1 versus a 2+2 road.?

It's hard to say. Often, 2+1 roads are upgrades of existing 2-lane roads, often partially on a new (better) alignment. 2+1 roads also tend to have a limited access facility, with grade-separation as much as possible, which increases the cost of course.

They have built many 2+2 roads in midwestern United States that carry less than 10,000 AADT, and also not rarely less than 5,000 AADT. Land was incredibly cheap in those areas, for example New Mexico or Indiana.

2+1 roads, however, require a significant distance before they can be useful. They don't work in roads with a lot of driveway access, slow traffic, intersections and what have you. Therefore, 2+1 roads often need to be build on a new alignment, which increases the cost because of land expropriations, acquiring a right-of-way.
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Old April 9th, 2010, 11:36 PM   #100
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Quote:
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That is why I said I believe if directional division lines were yellow, people would always know which side of the road belongs to them - which is how it is in North America. Like I said, if you're uncertain about your side of the road, all you have to do is look to your left. If you see yellow, you're safe.
I've never heard of any accidents here where people thought they were on their own side of the road, while in fact they were in the oncoming lanes. Usually head on collisions happen when people fall asleep behind the wheel, or are drunk, in either case, they shouldn't be driving. It's very easy to tell the difference between lane dividers and direction dividers, so there is no need to recolour them.

Also, I don't see how you would come to the conclusion that people see the 2+1 roads as dangerous. You will get plenty of warning to merge with lane one, as you approach the end of a "2" section. At the end of the "2" section is a relatively long "buffer zone" before the oncoming traffic's "2" zone starts.

2+1 roads usually have very few access roads, so you don't even have to worry about crossing traffic.

Besides, the second lane is for overtaking only. Driving in them, when you are not overtaking is forbidden, and as long as you do your overtaking before the first "merge" warning, you will never even get close to the end of the "2" zone.
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