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Old November 19th, 2010, 09:42 AM   #2261
Baiazid
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The traffic might be light now between Pitesti and Sibiu. But in 2008, when the traffic peaked all over Romania, DN7 was turning into a gridlock, 24h/day. There was a large number of trucks, manily Romanian and Turkish, but also Bulgarian and Iranian, driving in "packs" of 10-15 or more. And there were a lot of such truck "trains", al the way. I was driving that road several times a month by that time and it was awful, even though I was mainly crossing by night. Also, there were a lot of cars, minibuses and buses driving to and from the border at Nadlac.

In 2009 the trucks almost vanished, due to the economical crisis, but nowadays, the trucks are comming back on the road. I think by the end of 2012 the traffic values will be the same as in 2008.

An investor won't take 2009 or 2010 as refferece. Within 30 years, eventually Romania will develop, the traffic will increase and the general income will increase as well. So, like Chris says, people will be less reluctant in paying 4 EUR / 100 km - which anyway you might gain out of the fuel cost reduction, by using the motorway. Actually, I totally agree with Ionut, that people will actually be keen to pay 4 EUR / 100 km, just to get to the end of the road faster and safer.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 09:48 AM   #2262
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An investor won't take 2009 or 2010 as reference. Within 30 years, eventually Romania will develop, the traffic will increase and the general income will increase as well.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 12:12 PM   #2263
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Nice update by Adevarul from Sibiu bypass, it reeeallly is ready for opening in December 2010 (yeah, this year).

























source
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Old November 19th, 2010, 12:36 PM   #2264
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Very good news ... so some things can still be made in our country
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Old November 19th, 2010, 12:40 PM   #2265
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Yeah, something like building 17km of motorway on flatland in 7 years...
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Old November 19th, 2010, 12:42 PM   #2266
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Wow! They already marked it! Good! Can't wait to drive on it next month!

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Old November 19th, 2010, 12:55 PM   #2267
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Le Clerk are you coming to Sibiu only to drive on the bypass next month?
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Old November 19th, 2010, 01:05 PM   #2268
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No, I have some things to do there.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 01:09 PM   #2269
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Taking pictures of the signage
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Old November 19th, 2010, 01:19 PM   #2270
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No, no, in Sibiu I meant, but I will take pictures of the signage if that's your wish!
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Old November 19th, 2010, 01:45 PM   #2271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baiazid View Post
people will be less reluctant in paying 4 EUR / 100 km - which anyway you might gain out of the fuel cost reduction, by using the motorway. Actually, I totally agree with Ionut, that people will actually be keen to pay 4 EUR / 100 km, just to get to the end of the road faster and safer.
first: if they open the motorway, and half of the traffic go on that, the trafic remaining on the national road will be light, so the extra fuel consumption would never exced 4 EUR/100km (~6l/100km on motorway, ~7l/km on light traffic on national road).

second: you really don't know how the lower average romanian think... we are talking about people with lower income, and not to mention our "business men". remember that a big part of the traffic is made by people "working". I don't know what kind of owners did u meet in your life, but what I meet, if they can spare 2 euro on 100 km, they will do it, and don't care about the driver safety. And as a profesional driver (with a small car, not talking about trucks), I doubt anyone will pay "out of his pocket" month after month, tousands of km motorway tolls.

Of course, you can hope whatewer you want, even think the traffic it will double (reach 25.000), and all of them will go on the payed motorway. (even with that, with 4euro/100km, they could not recover the investment, because the mentenance is high).
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Old November 19th, 2010, 02:17 PM   #2272
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Guys, i know one thing about myself. If in Romania will be highways I will always choose to drive on them and pay the fee if it's in an acceptable margin. Highway vigneta for 40 Eur / year , or different amounts calculated. I prefer safety/speed, confort and relaxing driving.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 02:42 PM   #2273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baiazid View Post
So, like Chris says, people will be less reluctant in paying 4 EUR / 100 km - which anyway you might gain out of the fuel cost reduction, by using the motorway. Actually, I totally agree with Ionut, that people will actually be keen to pay 4 EUR / 100 km, just to get to the end of the road faster and safer.
The fuel consumption is almost always higher on the motorway due to high speed. If you drive at the speed limit, you will surely have a higher fuel consumption than by going on an ordinary road. However, between Pitesti and Sibiu many people will use the motorway as it will be about 30kms shorter than DN7. But also if all people use the motorway, the company won't make any profit in 30 years, without a regular sum of money paid yearly by the government. That was the case also on Comarnic-Brasov, a segment which has a greater AADT. So I think a PPP will work only in this situation.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 02:44 PM   #2274
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Originally Posted by madad View Post
Guys, i know one thing about myself. If in Romania will be highways I will always choose to drive on them and pay the fee if it's in an acceptable margin. Highway vigneta for 40 Eur / year , or different amounts calculated. I prefer safety/speed, confort and relaxing driving.
It will be nice if we will have vignette system instead of toll booths. I will also pay even 50 euros per year for a motorway and national roads vignette. Now the vignette is 28 euros/year.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 03:33 PM   #2275
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guys,

today you are discussing toll motorways vs national toll-free roads.

and what is the average Romanian choice.



I can answer:

90% of you would be taking toll motorways (unless it is completely useless - let say 30-40 km to drive)

why ?

because by the time you would have nice (I mean long) stretches of motorways you will understand that safety and pleasure is at least quite important, and on the other hand by that time your own family budget will not damaged.

last thing -
I do not mean year 2020 - I believe it is going to work within 3-4-5 years from now. I really do not think you would be taking into consideration as a main factor - fuel consumption of your car.

safety, duration and pleasure, these are the factors.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 03:34 PM   #2276
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Originally Posted by panda80 View Post
The fuel consumption is almost always higher on the motorway due to high speed. If you drive at the speed limit, you will surely have a higher fuel consumption than by going on an ordinary road. However, between Pitesti and Sibiu many people will use the motorway as it will be about 30kms shorter than DN7. But also if all people use the motorway, the company won't make any profit in 30 years, without a regular sum of money paid yearly by the government. That was the case also on Comarnic-Brasov, a segment which has a greater AADT. So I think a PPP will work only in this situation.
@luci & @panda. On one hand, the fuel consumption on motorway is generally lighter then on a regular road, due to pure physics. It takes far less energy to drive at a constant speed on a motorway with large curves and light slopes, then it takes to climb steep slopes and accelerate after each curve, or each slower vehicle you're overtaking, or after any other reason which gets you to stop on a regular road. We're not talking about extremes, such as driving 160 - 200 km/h and having a fuel consumption higher then the urban consumption.

Also, don't forget the value of the time spent in traffic. Without a dobut, companies big or small will prefer their employees to use the motorway and spend 4 EUR / 100km, rather then to be 1-2 hours late, with 20-25% more fuel cost.

Look at the other countries with motorway tolls. People do use the motorways, rather the alternative roads. It's stupid, but people even prefer to stay in a 10km traffic jam, rather then avoid it by using the regulard roads for 10-20km.

And actually, look at the Romanians, crossing Hungary towards Austria. They use the motorway, paying the 6 EUR toll / 340 km of motorway, despite the fact that they have the option of driving for free on regular roads. The same goes for Austria.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 03:36 PM   #2277
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safety, duration and pleasure, these are the factors.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 03:41 PM   #2278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by and802 View Post
guys,

today you are discussing toll motorways vs national toll-free roads.

and what is the average Romanian choice.



I can answer:

90% of you would be taking toll motorways (unless it is completely useless - let say 30-40 km to drive)

why ?

because by the time you would have nice (I mean long) stretches of motorways you will understand that safety and pleasure is at least quite important, and on the other hand by that time your own family budget will not damaged.

last thing -
I do not mean year 2020 - I believe it is going to work within 3-4-5 years from now. I really do not think you would be taking into consideration as a main factor - fuel consumption of your car.

safety, duration and pleasure, these are the factors.
Completely agree!
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Old November 19th, 2010, 04:03 PM   #2279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baiazid View Post
@luci & @panda. On one hand, the fuel consumption on motorway is generally lighter then on a regular road, due to pure physics. It takes far less energy to drive at a constant speed on a motorway with large curves and light slopes, then it takes to climb steep slopes and accelerate after each curve, or each slower vehicle you're overtaking, or after any other reason which gets you to stop on a regular road. We're not talking about extremes, such as driving 160 - 200 km/h and having a fuel consumption higher then the urban consumption.
From personal experience I can tell you the fuel consumption is higher on the motorway. A car ussually has the lowest fuel consumption at around 80km/h, so by doing 130, the fuel consumption increases a lot, on an exponential, not linear law depending on the car. For example from Braila to Bucharest I have a fuel consumption of 4.5 till Drajna and 5.2 till Bucharest. The lowest fuel consumption you can get, is indeed on the motorway, but if you drive lower than 100-110km/h. But it's hard to drive at that speeds on a motorway, as the temptation to do 120-130 is high.
Quote:
And actually, look at the Romanians, crossing Hungary towards Austria. They use the motorway, paying the 6 EUR toll / 340 km of motorway, despite the fact that they have the option of driving for free on regular roads. The same goes for Austria.
Yes, they use the motorways (well...most of them, look here starting with post 1135 http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...884918&page=57), but as you say, the price is under 2 euro/100km, in fact less than 1 euro/100km if you return in less than 4 days. And the ones travelling to Austria are generally medium income to rich person, a retired person driving a Dacia 1310 won't ever pay for the use of a motorway. You can see the fact now, that many persons don't buy the vignette.
Don't get me wrong, I don't say I won't pay for the motorway, especially between Sibiu and Pitesti, but there will be people which won't if the price is too high. So the price should be carefully chosen, and government should also pay a yearly rate in a profitable PPP. Otherwise nobody will invest in the motorway.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 04:09 PM   #2280
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edit:
we posted about the same time about the same thing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baiazid View Post
And actually, look at the Romanians, crossing Hungary towards Austria. They use the motorway, paying the 6 EUR toll / 340 km of motorway, despite the fact that they have the option of driving for free on regular roads. The same goes for Austria.
aaa... 6 euro... 340km... so it's less than 2 euro/100 km

also people that can affrod to go to Austria, are above average income... not my "target audience" (the 50% that won't pay the toll)
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