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Old October 14th, 2011, 07:25 PM   #3581
JackFrost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
Only this idiots are running for elections every time... And people vote for them because they have no other option.
of course we all know what good ol' George Carlin says about this :-)))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk

okay, thats completely off topic here, but its a funny video...
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Old October 14th, 2011, 11:29 PM   #3582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhirgataZFs1694 View Post
Two questions:
1. Could you post Cheausescu's motorway network plan?
and
2. Is Basescu a socialist?
1.
Ceausescu's plan (by the institute IPTANA) 1969:

New plan according to a law in 1996 (before elections; never implemented):

What is being built these days follows newer plan for 2007 - 2013 (which is far behind schedule)

2. Complicated:
His party was separated from the Iliescu's party in 1992 (thus socialist).

Basescu's party was in a governing coallition 3 mandates until now and always the coallition policy was right-wing (liberal).
For example, when Iliescu's party was in government, the salaries were progressively taxated, from 0% to 40%.
In the last 2 mandates Basescu's party taxated all salaries with a 16% fix quota.

Many Romanian political leaders, including Basescu and Iliescu, were in the Comunist Party before 1989 and now they are left or right wings.

Last edited by danielstan; October 15th, 2011 at 12:04 AM.
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Old October 15th, 2011, 12:44 AM   #3583
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Totall agree with old Ceau.How the hell you havent built a motorway from Bucharest-Craiova-Calafat-Sofia is beyond me.(its flat for christ sake).
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Old October 15th, 2011, 09:59 AM   #3584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielstan View Post
The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth:
Basescu said Romania doesn't need highways in 1996 when the natioanal road Pitesti - Ramnicu Valcea was rehabilitated.

Romania has an average salary of 100$/month and even less between 1990 - 2004 and they bought Dacia cars, chiefly.
Between 2004 - 2007 the average salary grew to around 300$/month and in these years Romanians started to buy new cars massively, until recently.

Didn't you all lived in Romania those years?
Apparently not.

On top of your info, I'd add the fact that the RO economy collapsed throughout the 90s until 2001, by 30% of the 1990 base. Starting 2001, the economy began growing very slow again until 2005 (when it only topped the 1990 base). After 2005, the economy started growing faster than 5% topping in 2008 when it grew by 8%. Romania couldn't possibly build motorways until the mid 2000s because there was no money for that. As simple as that.
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Old October 21st, 2011, 11:33 AM   #3585
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A Highway System should be the first priority of any economy, us the Romanians have no excuse for not building one.Now we are picking the fruits of our labor( I am being sarcastic of course).And The future generations will judge us for this.Romania end of road
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Old October 21st, 2011, 06:05 PM   #3586
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It seems the EU Commission has approved in priciple the EU financing for Transilvania Motorway sections which were removed from Bechtel's scope of works.

Source in Ro


And 2 Chinese companies are willing to commit for the construction of A0 (Bucharest ring motorway).
Ro source
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Last edited by Le Clerk; October 21st, 2011 at 06:10 PM.
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Old October 21st, 2011, 06:56 PM   #3587
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Motorways currently u/c in Romania:
  • Arad - Nadlac (both sections) - 38,9
  • Arad bypass - 12,25
  • Arad - Timisoara - 32,25
  • Centura Timisoara (TM-Lugoj section 1) - 9,5
  • Timisoara - Lugoj lot 2 (this will have to be re-tendered) - 25,63
  • Lugoj - Deva lot 1 - 27,47
  • Deva - Orastie - 32,8
  • Orastie - Sibiu (all 4 sections) - 82,07
  • Murfatlar - Cernavoda - 30,5
  • Constanta bypass (8,5 km out of a total of 22 are already opened) - 13,5
  • Bucuresti - Ploiesti (all sections, without those 10 km between Bucharest-city and it's bypass where works haven't started yet) - 52
  • Suplacu de Barcau - Bors (I'm not sure that they are actually working here) - 64
Total: 420,87 km
Total without Timisoara - Lugoj section 2 and Suplacu de Barcau - Bors: 331,24 km
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Old October 21st, 2011, 08:52 PM   #3588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post

And 2 Chinese companies are willing to commit for the construction of A0 (Bucharest ring motorway).
Ro source
Don't go this path

Please learn from our (Polish) experience, Bechtel case shall be enough for you,I guess..
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Old October 21st, 2011, 09:20 PM   #3589
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What happened in Poland? I haven't heard anything so far.
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Old October 21st, 2011, 11:38 PM   #3590
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AS VREA SA STIU CAND VOR INCEPE LUCRARILE LA DN 18?
SI LA DJ 187 RUSCOVA POIENILE DE SUB MUNTE
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Old October 21st, 2011, 11:43 PM   #3591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpop2005 View Post
AS VREA SA STIU CAND VOR INCEPE LUCRARILE LA DN 18?
SI LA DJ 187 RUSCOVA POIENILE DE SUB MUNTE
Salut ivanpop2005 si bine ai venit pe SSC . Aceast thread de pe forum este unul in Limba Engleza deoarece este citit si de persoane din afara tarii. Pentru informatii in Limba Romana referitoare la stadiul lucrarior pe diferite Drumuri Nationale din tara iti recomand sa intrii aici: Roads.

PS: nu folosi CAPS LOCK, arata urat
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Old October 21st, 2011, 11:45 PM   #3592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keepon View Post
What happened in Poland? I haven't heard anything so far.
For details please check the Polish topic. In general there were 2 tenders won by Chinese public company Covec due to abnormal, dumping price(half of next one in rank). 1 year later this company was kicked out for delaying the contracts and not paying to subcontractors. New tenders were announced, but we waisted almost 2 years for nothing..
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Old October 21st, 2011, 11:59 PM   #3593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
Motorways currently u/c in Romania:
  • Arad - Nadlac (both sections) - 38,9
  • Arad bypass - 12,25
  • Arad - Timisoara - 32,25
  • Centura Timisoara (TM-Lugoj section 1) - 9,5
  • Timisoara - Lugoj lot 2 (this will have to be re-tendered) - 25,63
  • Lugoj - Deva lot 1 - 27,47
  • Deva - Orastie - 32,8
  • Orastie - Sibiu (all 4 sections) - 82,07
  • Murfatlar - Cernavoda - 30,5
  • Constanta bypass (8,5 km out of a total of 22 are already opened) - 13,5
  • Bucuresti - Ploiesti (all sections, without those 10 km between Bucharest-city and it's bypass where works haven't started yet) - 52
  • Suplacu de Barcau - Bors (I'm not sure that they are actually working here) - 64
Total: 420,87 km
Total without Timisoara - Lugoj section 2 and Suplacu de Barcau - Bors: 331,24 km
Good update. Thanks!

A map would be even better.
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 12:00 AM   #3594
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seszele View Post
For details please check the Polish topic. In general there were 2 tenders won by Chinese public company Covec due to abnormal, dumping price(half of next one in rank). 1 year later this company was kicked out for delaying the contracts and not paying to subcontractors. New tenders were announced, but we waisted almost 2 years for nothing..
There will be different companies in Romania than Covec, and the situation will also be different: there will be no public money but Chinese state money under a PPP deal.
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 02:55 AM   #3595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
There will be different companies in Romania than Covec, and the situation will also be different: there will be no public money but Chinese state money under a PPP deal.
I envy you, Le Clerk. You live in a dream.

@ seszele: I agree with you. I hope Romanian gvt. won't make the same mistake as the Polish one did.
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 09:23 AM   #3596
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
There will be different companies in Romania than Covec, and the situation will also be different: there will be no public money but Chinese state money under a PPP deal.
Covec is a government run company. whether PPP or public bid, this does not make a difference in this particular example. we cannot say what will hapen - let us wait and see. but we can - somehow - predict the future.

should the PPP project be priced at noticeably lower level than the real cost of the project, do not expect it will be finished at the same price, what is more: on time.
subcontractors must be hired locally - Chinese company will not "import" some thousand Chinese workers to Romania for a couple of years to deal with the project. otherwise you become the first country in Europe in terms of Chinese minority.

coming back to the price of contract...
if it is noticeably lower than the real experts estimate, then the schema is always the same:

1. construction works are stopped ( a year ?)
2. everybody waits until another (additional) source of funds are founds (will they find ?)
3. construcion works are resumed (if funds are found)

now tell me what is additional value of inviting Chinese to your project ?

if "money" - it works everytime, everywhere the same: if you below the margin of the project - everything is stopped.

if "quality" - I do not know - could not retreive from my mind any european motorway built by Chinese

if "on time project" - again the same story

last thing. you learnt you lesson (are you sure ?) from Betchel - the project was underestimated. that time it was an american company. why do you think Chinese government would be financing Romanian Nation for free ?
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 09:41 AM   #3597
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nenea_hartia View Post
I envy you, Le Clerk. You live in a dream.
I know you don't like Chinese companies, but you still do not explain your opinion.


I believe it's a huge difference when a Chinese company builds with Romanian money (*or Polish Gov money, as in the case of Poland) and a state-owned Chinese company builds with Chinese state money.
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 09:44 AM   #3598
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Quote:
Originally Posted by and802 View Post
Covec is a government run company. whether PPP or public bid, this does not make a difference in this particular example. we cannot say what will hapen - let us wait and see. but we can - somehow - predict the future.

should the PPP project be priced at noticeably lower level than the real cost of the project, do not expect it will be finished at the same price, what is more: on time.
subcontractors must be hired locally - Chinese company will not "import" some thousand Chinese workers to Romania for a couple of years to deal with the project. otherwise you become the first country in Europe in terms of Chinese minority.

coming back to the price of contract...
if it is noticeably lower than the real experts estimate, then the schema is always the same:

1. construction works are stopped ( a year ?)
2. everybody waits until another (additional) source of funds are founds (will they find ?)
3. construcion works are resumed (if funds are found)

now tell me what is additional value of inviting Chinese to your project ?

if "money" - it works everytime, everywhere the same: if you below the margin of the project - everything is stopped.

if "quality" - I do not know - could not retreive from my mind any european motorway built by Chinese

if "on time project" - again the same story

last thing. you learnt you lesson (are you sure ?) from Betchel - the project was underestimated. that time it was an american company. why do you think Chinese government would be financing Romanian Nation for free ?
Please read my answer above: there will be no Romanian Gov money. If they bid low, it's the Chinese state who bids low and will suffer the costs of a failure.
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 09:49 AM   #3599
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
I know you don't like Chinese companies, but you still do not explain your opinion.


I believe it's a huge difference when a Chinese company builds with Romanian money (*or Polish Gov money, as in the case of Poland) and a state-owned Chinese company builds with Chinese state money.
what is this huge difference ? can you explain ?.

emm, I could not see your last post.

how do you think they will suffer from the costs of a failure ? in my opinion they will get money for what they had done so for and just stepped back , and you will be left with no highway. betchel did it, didn't it ?
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 09:56 AM   #3600
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In a way I agree with LeClerk. Romanian gov. dosen't have the money to build Bucharest ring road so here are the possible outcomes:
  • best possible scenario: Chinese come to Romania, build A0 with their own money and get their money back from the road tolls ==> we have A0
  • 2nd possible scenario: Chinese come to Romania, start building A0 but they stop because of [*insert reason*] ==> we don't have A0
  • 3rd possinle scenario: we try to make a PPP with European companies, but nobody want's to finance this motorway ==> we don't have A0
  • worst possible scenario: the Romanian Government dosen't have money for A0 so we are not building it ==> we don't have A0, but we don't even try to find a solution

Anyway, we should be very carefull with the Chinese (see the Polish example) and the Romanian Government should negociate a contract that is very good and strong for Romania (not like Bechtel contract).
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