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Old October 22nd, 2011, 10:08 AM   #3601
Le Clerk
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Yes bogdymol, any best->worst case scenario above is better than now.

To respond to and802, I'd say we have our own right to failure with the Chinese. But I do believe this case is different than the Polish case with Covec. Anyway, let us get to the moment when a Chinese company actually starts building with Chinese State money here and then discuss possible failures.
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 10:11 AM   #3602
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About Chinese workers in Romania, I remember when the 2nd building of the mall in Timisoara was built, there were lots of them brought here to work non-stop and finish in time.
Also, I think one Danube bridge near Belgrade is built also by Chinese, with their workers.
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 12:41 PM   #3603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
Yes bogdymol, any best->worst case scenario above is better than now.
no. I do not agree. if your plan is not real/doable, then you waste a lot of time.
so, No, planning wrong things does not mean it is going to be better than doing nothing. (present situation)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
To respond to and802, I'd say we have our own right to failure with the Chinese. ...
of course.
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 07:55 PM   #3604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by and802 View Post
no. I do not agree. if your plan is not real/doable, then you waste a lot of time.
so, No, planning wrong things does not mean it is going to be better than doing nothing. (present situation)
What can be more of a waste of time if nothing is done because there is no money? Let's assume they'll start doing something about that: a project will be made, design, expropriations, constructions will take place, and then let's assume everything will stop because of some reason. Still, there will be something left that could be continued: a project, some expropriations etc, as in the case with Bechtel and Transylvania Motorway, which was suspended for a while and now has found some EU financing, apart from Gov financing. Had it been not for Bechtel (poor) agreement, there would've been no Transylvania Motorway project, at least not in the 2000s and early 2010s.

BTW: China started to invest serious money in Romania's (IT&C) infrastructure, for now (but there are some very good prospects for huge amounts of money - around EUR 5 billion - to be invested in Romanian road and energy infrastructure):
Quote:
China's Huawei To Invest EUR200M In Romania By 2014

Chinese IT&C equipment producer Huawei will invest EUR200 million in Romania by 2014, mainly in a design center in Bucharest and a national fiber optic network in partnership with power grid operator Transelectrica.
Source
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 09:28 PM   #3605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
In a way I agree with LeClerk. Romanian gov. dosen't have the money to build Bucharest ring road so here are the possible outcomes:
  • best possible scenario: Chinese come to Romania, build A0 with their own money and get their money back from the road tolls ==> we have A0
  • 2nd possible scenario: Chinese come to Romania, start building A0 but they stop because of [*insert reason*] ==> we don't have A0
  • 3rd possinle scenario: we try to make a PPP with European companies, but nobody want's to finance this motorway ==> we don't have A0
  • worst possible scenario: the Romanian Government dosen't have money for A0 so we are not building it ==> we don't have A0, but we don't even try to find a solution

Anyway, we should be very carefull with the Chinese (see the Polish example) and the Romanian Government should negociate a contract that is very good and strong for Romania (not like Bechtel contract).
What about 5th scenario: Romania manages to get funding from the EU under the TEN-T agreements and builds northern part of A0 (A1 - A2 link) ==> half of A0 built with EU money and EU/RO companies
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 09:30 PM   #3606
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
Motorways currently u/c in Romania:
  • Arad - Nadlac (both sections) - 38,9
  • Arad bypass - 12,25
  • Arad - Timisoara - 32,25
  • Centura Timisoara (TM-Lugoj section 1) - 9,5
  • Timisoara - Lugoj lot 2 (this will have to be re-tendered) - 25,63
  • Lugoj - Deva lot 1 - 27,47
  • Deva - Orastie - 32,8
  • Orastie - Sibiu (all 4 sections) - 82,07
  • Murfatlar - Cernavoda - 30,5
  • Constanta bypass (8,5 km out of a total of 22 are already opened) - 13,5
  • Bucuresti - Ploiesti (all sections, without those 10 km between Bucharest-city and it's bypass where works haven't started yet) - 52
  • Suplacu de Barcau - Bors (I'm not sure that they are actually working here) - 64
Total: 420,87 km
Total without Timisoara - Lugoj section 2 and Suplacu de Barcau - Bors: 331,24 km
Useful, but here's my little tip; add what's updated, so we know what are new developments
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 09:40 PM   #3607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slakero View Post
What about 5th scenario: Romania manages to get funding from the EU under the TEN-T agreements and builds northern part of A0 (A1 - A2 link) ==> half of A0 built with EU money and EU/RO companies
There is nearly not enough EU money for the Romanian motorway system. We need to, at least, double the rate of what the EU can fund if Romania is to have a decent motorway network by 2025 (about 2,500 km).

The EU is currently funding about 300 km U/C, and will fund another 300-400 km in the budget period of 2013-2020. We need to find funding to double those km funded by the EU. Chinese are one source. Recently, 2 state owned companies have stated their firm interest for A0 which is a EUR 1 billion project (100 km of motorway), and possibly for other project (Sibiu-Pitesti or Comarnic- Brasov).
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 09:44 PM   #3608
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I don't suppose the Chinese will build roads in Romania out of charity.
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 09:48 PM   #3609
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No, of course not. The Gov will guarantee not only the recovery of costs but also a profit (over 25 years or more, which is still very good). Still, Romania will get some infrastructure which will bring a lot more revenue than the profit the Chinese claim. This is on top of the fact that without such investments from China or whatever, certain projects would be delayed too much.
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 10:11 PM   #3610
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I remember reading something in an article that they had no interest in A1, more specifically the Pitești - Sibiu section.

What I really can't understand is why a PPP can't be done on Comarnic - Brașov! That's like a fast source profit almost guaranteed for anyone who would be operating that stretch of motorway. The traffic is already intense, not to mention the no. of tourists traveling from Bucharest to Brașov. Add the Romanian ones going to the mountainside every weekend and you have the best place to operate a motorway.
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 10:17 PM   #3611
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The Gov has submitted a decision to launch the PPP procedures for Comarnic-Brasov in September after the PMs visit to China earlier this summer. I think there is an agreement for that. What is more probable to be signed with the Chinese are A0 (first) and then A3 (Comarnic-Brasov-Fagaras).
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 10:21 PM   #3612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
A map would be even better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Useful, but here's my little tip; add what's updated, so we know what are new developments
Done!

Motorways currently u/c in Romania:
  • Arad - Nadlac (both sections) - 38,9
  • Arad bypass - 12,25
  • Arad - Timisoara - 32,25
  • Centura Timisoara (TM-Lugoj section 1) - 9,5
  • Timisoara - Lugoj lot 2 (this will have to be re-tendered) - 25,63
  • Lugoj - Deva lot 1 - 27,47
  • Deva - Orastie - 32,8
  • Orastie - Sibiu (all 4 sections) - 82,07
  • Murfatlar - Cernavoda - 30,5
  • Constanta bypass (8,5 km out of a total of 22 are already opened) - 13,5
  • Bucuresti - Ploiesti (all sections, without those 10 km between Bucharest-city and it's bypass where works haven't started yet) - 52
  • Suplacu de Barcau - Bors (I'm not sure that they are actually working here) - 64
Total: 420,87 km
Total without Timisoara - Lugoj section 2 and Suplacu de Barcau - Bors: 331,24 km


Legend:
green: opened
blue: to be opened this year
orange: u/c, to be opened in 2012
purple: u/c, to be opened in 2013
red: construction started now
gray: it will be re-tendered
yellow: the tender should start soon


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Old October 22nd, 2011, 10:30 PM   #3613
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Timisoara-Lugoj U/C:


Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
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Old October 24th, 2011, 07:24 PM   #3614
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A1 Arad - Timisoara and Arad bypass motorways recorded on October 17th:

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Old October 24th, 2011, 09:32 PM   #3615
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Thanks to all of you for the info about the stage of the motorway development in Romania, especially for the map!

I have two more questions:
What kind of funding sourves are used? - loans, EU funding, state budget
what about the kilometer numbering of the A3 and A1 When I was recently driving on A3 section between Cluj-Napoca and Campia Turzii, I noticed that kilometers bedin at 0 at the beginning of that section near Campia Turzii. The same with A1 near Sibiu?!
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Old October 24th, 2011, 11:57 PM   #3616
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The U/C sections of A1 and A2 are funded by the EU (about 85%).

The U/C sections of A3 are funded entirely from Gov sources.

The yellow sections of A3 will be partially funded by the EU under TEN-T (lower funding than under Pan-EU corridors, at about 50%):

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Old October 25th, 2011, 01:53 AM   #3617
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Does that mean that work will start any time soon on A3 between Campia Turzii and Târgu Mures? (thanks for the map btw!)
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Old October 25th, 2011, 07:11 AM   #3618
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The lened was made by bogdymol and posted above:

Quote:
Legend:
green: opened
blue: to be opened this year
orange: u/c, to be opened in 2012
purple: u/c, to be opened in 2013
red: construction started now
gray: it will be re-tendered
yellow: the tender should start soon
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Old October 26th, 2011, 08:26 AM   #3619
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
Done!

Motorways currently u/c in Romania:
  • Arad - Nadlac (both sections) - 38,9
  • Arad bypass - 12,25
  • Arad - Timisoara - 32,25
  • Centura Timisoara (TM-Lugoj section 1) - 9,5
  • Timisoara - Lugoj lot 2 (this will have to be re-tendered) - 25,63
  • Lugoj - Deva lot 1 - 27,47
  • Deva - Orastie - 32,8
  • Orastie - Sibiu (all 4 sections) - 82,07
  • Murfatlar - Cernavoda - 30,5
  • Constanta bypass (8,5 km out of a total of 22 are already opened) - 13,5
  • Bucuresti - Ploiesti (all sections, without those 10 km between Bucharest-city and it's bypass where works haven't started yet) - 52
  • Suplacu de Barcau - Bors (I'm not sure that they are actually working here) - 64
Total: 420,87 km
Total without Timisoara - Lugoj section 2 and Suplacu de Barcau - Bors: 331,24 km


Legend:
green: opened
blue: to be opened this year
orange: u/c, to be opened in 2012
purple: u/c, to be opened in 2013
red: construction started now
gray: it will be re-tendered
yellow: the tender should start soon



Suplacu-Bors and Gilau-Campia Turzii are currently U/C.

I amended the map a little bit adding the sections proposed for PPP (in dark blue):

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Last edited by Le Clerk; October 26th, 2011 at 08:36 AM.
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Old October 26th, 2011, 07:44 PM   #3620
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Isn't Gilau-Campia Turzii the section already built of A3?
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