daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old March 11th, 2013, 11:25 PM   #5681
Andrej_LJ
Registered User
 
Andrej_LJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ljubljana-Sofia-Skopje
Posts: 2,703
Likes (Received): 5204

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
That sounds like an entirely normal value for a PPP project. You have to take financing costs into account, therefor you cannot compare it with other projects.
For countries like The Netherlands probably yes, but for Balkan countries this looks like total non-sense. Look at construction costs in Bulgaria for a comparison (both countries have similar economical and geographical characteristics). Prices for motorway construction in Romania seem very high when compared with regional ones.
Andrej_LJ no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old March 12th, 2013, 12:00 AM   #5682
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,612
Likes (Received): 19400

You guys are comparing government financed projects with privately financed projects. PPP contracts run for 20 or 30 years, interest and financing cost alone can be close to half that € 1.5 billion, which means the overall construction price would be around 7 million per kilometer, which is among the lowest in Europe.
__________________

my clinched highways / travel mapping • highway photography @ Flickr and Youtube

roata, MHN liked this post
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2013, 12:34 AM   #5683
Le Clerk
AUTOBANN.ED
 
Le Clerk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 35,479
Likes (Received): 12044

Chris is right. You guys need to understand the separation between financing projects and construction projects.

In financing projects, the investor/contractor needs to procure the funding, ussually from banks in order to build the project. If you compute the final amount one pays for a loan after 25 years in order to buy say an appartment, you'd reach the astonishing conclusion that you may pay 3x the loan!

In construction projects, which are funded by the state, there is no loan involved. Here construction costs for km has gone down in the past years to EUR 3-4 mil/km in plain areas.

In this particular case, if an investor bids EUR 1.2 billion, because it is capable of procuring very cheap financing (say, it is assisted by a country with very large cash amounts such as China), this does not mean that construction costs are lower, but only that financing costs are lower.

BTW: Has Bulgaria had a PPP project so far?
__________________
Rebuilding Bucharest's History: Lipscani Area |Victoriei Ave. | Elisabeta Bld.
Yes, it's Dracula's Castle
Best picture collection of UNESCO sites in Romania
Castles and Mansions in Romania

MHN liked this post

Last edited by Le Clerk; March 12th, 2013 at 12:48 AM.
Le Clerk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2013, 09:59 AM   #5684
Le Clerk
AUTOBANN.ED
 
Le Clerk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 35,479
Likes (Received): 12044

Quote:
Originally Posted by alwn View Post
1,7 billion for 121 km? 14 million Euro/ km for a motorway (or express road ??)competely plain. Hope it was a mistake. and hope it wont be built from my pocket
I suggest that only 7,4 mill of the citizens to pay the bill.
These PPPs are from the contractors' pockects, as long as a certain traffic is guaranteed. If it's lower, the state jumps in to ensure the revenue difference. So, in the end, there willl be a cost to the state but lower or much lower than the financing cost or even lower than construction cost.

BUT, and here's the BIG difference, Romania gets to have motorways such as A0, Comarnic-Brasov, Sibiu-Pitesti, Tg Mures-Iasi etc at least one decade earlier than what the state budget proper (and EU financial support) affords to invest in infrastructure development. In 2014-2020 we'll be busy with building Sibiu-Pitesti and Ploiesti-Comarnic with EU (and budget) funds so there will be nothing left for anyting else.
__________________
Rebuilding Bucharest's History: Lipscani Area |Victoriei Ave. | Elisabeta Bld.
Yes, it's Dracula's Castle
Best picture collection of UNESCO sites in Romania
Castles and Mansions in Romania
Le Clerk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2013, 05:21 PM   #5685
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,612
Likes (Received): 19400

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
In construction projects, which are funded by the state, there is no loan involved. Here construction costs for km has gone down in the past years to EUR 3-4 mil/km in plain areas.
Keep in mind these financing costs for the government are hidden in the general budget. These comparisons make it appear that PPP projects are wildly expensive and look very disadvantageous at first glance.

Quote:
BTW: Has Bulgaria had a PPP project so far?
I assume the Vidin - Calafat Bridge is a PPP project.

Note that there are several forms of a PPP project.

The most common form are DBFM contracts which runs for 20 or 30 years, and concession models.

With DBFM contracts, the consortium designs, builds, finances and maintains the road over a certain period of time. Overall these are cheaper and (much) faster than projects funded directly from the government budget.

Concession models are common in countries like France or Spain, where a private company builds and owns the road, and also levies tolls to pay the investment and interest costs back.

For motorists, the main difference between the two are the fact that concessions have tolls, whereas DBFM contracts have no tolls. (there are a few DBFM contracts that have shadow tolls, but these are generally considered to be very disadvantageous for the government).
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2013, 10:58 PM   #5686
bogdymol
bogdymod
 
bogdymol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 11,184

A1 motorway u/c near Sibiu...


sursa
__________________
Lived, Been, Drove in: A B BG BiH CH CZ D DK E F FIN FL GBZ GR H HR I IRL L M MNE P PL RO RSM S SK SLO SRB UK V
+ Australia, Hong Kong, Macau, Malaysia, New Zealand, Singapore, United Arab Emirates & United States of America
my clinched highways
My wife has just started a travel blog. Check it out here: makeitcount.blog

Le Clerk, cassyo, pmalenkin, neaguionutu liked this post
bogdymol no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2013, 11:49 PM   #5687
Le Clerk
AUTOBANN.ED
 
Le Clerk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 35,479
Likes (Received): 12044

Testing the quality of pavement?
__________________
Rebuilding Bucharest's History: Lipscani Area |Victoriei Ave. | Elisabeta Bld.
Yes, it's Dracula's Castle
Best picture collection of UNESCO sites in Romania
Castles and Mansions in Romania
Le Clerk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 13th, 2013, 12:14 AM   #5688
Le Clerk
AUTOBANN.ED
 
Le Clerk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 35,479
Likes (Received): 12044

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Keep in mind these financing costs for the government are hidden in the general budget. These comparisons make it appear that PPP projects are wildly expensive and look very disadvantageous at first glance.
The estimated cost of PPPs must take into consideration the reasonable/locally tagged cost of financing which is the most expensive part of a PPP. Otherwise, if the cost of financing is not included or underestimated, such project would not become "bankable", or otherwise said, banks would not finance the project. This doesn't mean the estimated costs should become the contracted cost, because the investor may always bid and contract a lower price, due to lower financing costs.

Quote:
I assume the Vidin - Calafat Bridge is a PPP project.
No, it's financed by the EU and the Bulgarian Gov.

Quote:
Note that there are several forms of a PPP project.

The most common form are DBFM contracts which runs for 20 or 30 years, and concession models.

With DBFM contracts, the consortium designs, builds, finances and maintains the road over a certain period of time. Overall these are cheaper and (much) faster than projects funded directly from the government budget.

Concession models are common in countries like France or Spain, where a private company builds and owns the road, and also levies tolls to pay the investment and interest costs back.

For motorists, the main difference between the two are the fact that concessions have tolls, whereas DBFM contracts have no tolls. (there are a few DBFM contracts that have shadow tolls, but these are generally considered to be very disadvantageous for the government).
I don't actually think there is a substantial difference between them. In both case the investor procures the financing, designs, builds, maintains and operates the infrastructure for a period of time, at the end of which the infrastructure returns entirely into the control of the state. This will be the case in Romania, but there will be also tolled roads at an agreed rate so that the investor recoups the investment, and to ensure the rate of investment return.
__________________
Rebuilding Bucharest's History: Lipscani Area |Victoriei Ave. | Elisabeta Bld.
Yes, it's Dracula's Castle
Best picture collection of UNESCO sites in Romania
Castles and Mansions in Romania
Le Clerk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 13th, 2013, 05:55 PM   #5689
Le Clerk
AUTOBANN.ED
 
Le Clerk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 35,479
Likes (Received): 12044

It seems that Tg Mures-Iasi (289 km) is also getting some kick ahead with support from EIB for a PPP. If they tender at least Iasi-Tg Neamt in the first half of this year, it's a good achievement.

http://www.hotnews.ro/stiri-esential...mures-iasi.htm


__________________
Rebuilding Bucharest's History: Lipscani Area |Victoriei Ave. | Elisabeta Bld.
Yes, it's Dracula's Castle
Best picture collection of UNESCO sites in Romania
Castles and Mansions in Romania
Le Clerk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 13th, 2013, 10:56 PM   #5690
van_allen78
ardelean 100%
 
van_allen78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Baia Mare/ Neustadt
Posts: 288
Likes (Received): 180

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
It seems that Tg Mures-Iasi (289 km) is also getting some kick ahead with support from EIB for a PPP. If they tender at least Iasi-Tg Neamt in the first half of this year, it's a good achievement.

http://www.hotnews.ro/stiri-esential...mures-iasi.htm


Bull shit...he tries to show that he is usefull too...
__________________
Politicienii unei tari sunt oglinda fidela a naravurilor acelui popor; provin din mijlocul lui, il paraziteaza pana la exterminare si apoi pier si ei odata cu dansul.

neaguionutu liked this post
van_allen78 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 13th, 2013, 11:06 PM   #5691
Le Clerk
AUTOBANN.ED
 
Le Clerk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 35,479
Likes (Received): 12044

Getting EIB hand in a future PPP is really helpful, because EIB is for infrastructure projects like the IMF is for sovereign credit.
__________________
Rebuilding Bucharest's History: Lipscani Area |Victoriei Ave. | Elisabeta Bld.
Yes, it's Dracula's Castle
Best picture collection of UNESCO sites in Romania
Castles and Mansions in Romania
Le Clerk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 14th, 2013, 01:09 PM   #5692
Le Clerk
AUTOBANN.ED
 
Le Clerk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 35,479
Likes (Received): 12044

The authorities are looking to terminate the Transylvania Motorway contract with Bechtel by end of April and contract the works with other investors. It seems there are 3 companies which are interested in PPPs for the TM section currently contracted by Bechtel.
http://www.capital.ro/detalii-artico...iv-179469.html
__________________
Rebuilding Bucharest's History: Lipscani Area |Victoriei Ave. | Elisabeta Bld.
Yes, it's Dracula's Castle
Best picture collection of UNESCO sites in Romania
Castles and Mansions in Romania
Le Clerk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 14th, 2013, 07:31 PM   #5693
zol21
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Cluj-Napoca
Posts: 441
Likes (Received): 237

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
The authorities are looking to terminate the Transylvania Motorway contract with Bechtel by end of April and contract the works with other investors. It seems there are 3 companies which are interested in PPPs for the TM section currently contracted by Bechtel.
http://www.capital.ro/detalii-artico...iv-179469.html
Sebes- Turda 85% from EU funds.. is this real?
zol21 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 14th, 2013, 09:18 PM   #5694
medicu' de garda
Moderator de garda
 
medicu' de garda's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 1,798
Likes (Received): 1368

It's probably another misunderstanding by the goverment officials. The Sebes-Turda-Targu-Mures - Iasi motorway was succesfully included in the TEN-T core project list recently, but it is only eligible for 25-30% EU financing, as it is not part of any paneuropean corridor. So, not so good news afterall. Still, it's a good thing that they at least realise they can get EU funds for these segments . I was getting pretty tired of all those PPP talks, with no tangible results to date.
__________________
Trust me, I'm an east-european doctor.

zol21 liked this post
medicu' de garda no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 14th, 2013, 09:28 PM   #5695
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,612
Likes (Received): 19400

Some questions regarding possibly outdated data.

* DN14 Sibiu - Sighişoara modernization (entire route), March 2011 - March 2013. Status?
* DN15 Târgu Mureş - Reghin modernization (circa 40 km), March 2011 - March 2013. Status?
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 15th, 2013, 12:37 AM   #5696
Le Clerk
AUTOBANN.ED
 
Le Clerk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 35,479
Likes (Received): 12044

Quote:
Originally Posted by medicu' de garda View Post
It's probably another misunderstanding by the goverment officials. The Sebes-Turda-Targu-Mures - Iasi motorway was succesfully included in the TEN-T core project list recently, but it is only eligible for 25-30% EU financing, as it is not part of any paneuropean corridor. So, not so good news afterall. Still, it's a good thing that they at least realise they can get EU funds for these segments . I was getting pretty tired of all those PPP talks, with no tangible results to date.
Ussually, negotiations for a large PPP, as in these projects we're talking, can take as long as 2 years. Hopefully, we are gonna see some contracts before the end of this summer. The good news is that there is sound interest in these projects: 4 consortia for each of the projects.

PS: we need to terminate the Bechtel section. There is no money from the budget anymore, so an investor is needed there too.
__________________
Rebuilding Bucharest's History: Lipscani Area |Victoriei Ave. | Elisabeta Bld.
Yes, it's Dracula's Castle
Best picture collection of UNESCO sites in Romania
Castles and Mansions in Romania
Le Clerk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 15th, 2013, 01:47 PM   #5697
nenea_hartia
Skeptic
 
nenea_hartia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Romania
Posts: 3,714
Likes (Received): 233

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Some questions regarding possibly outdated data.

* DN14 Sibiu - Sighişoara modernization (entire route), March 2011 - March 2013. Status?
* DN15 Târgu Mureş - Reghin modernization (circa 40 km), March 2011 - March 2013. Status?
Summer of 2013th for both, I'd say.
nenea_hartia no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 16th, 2013, 03:33 PM   #5698
Pascal20a
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 816
Likes (Received): 19

Does anybody have new pics of the A1 Arad - Nadlac in construction?
Pascal20a no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 16th, 2013, 06:40 PM   #5699
PhirgataZFs1694
Registered User
 
PhirgataZFs1694's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sofia
Posts: 6,472
Likes (Received): 1560

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
It seems that Tg Mures-Iasi (289 km) is also getting some kick ahead with support from EIB for a PPP. If they tender at least Iasi-Tg Neamt in the first half of this year, it's a good achievement.

http://www.hotnews.ro/stiri-esential...mures-iasi.htm


Why does the motorway Iasi - Tg Mures not go by Roman and Piatra Neamt?
PhirgataZFs1694 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 16th, 2013, 07:03 PM   #5700
Pascal20a
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 816
Likes (Received): 19

Or the section Timisoara - Lugoj??
Pascal20a no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
highways, infrastructure, motorways, romania

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium