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Old September 3rd, 2013, 04:39 AM   #6361
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Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
Excelent pictures shot by the romanian SSC forum member ovisopa for sibiul.ro website:


I'm confused. Why are they making such complex junctions with simple country roads? Why not just make simple parallel ramps that would cost one fifth the price? I can't understand why a country that has trouble making money would build such a wasteful and useless but expensive interchange system, that is also a lot less efficient in moving traffic?
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 07:35 AM   #6362
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The Spanish and the Portugese who were very active bidders in the €300-600m contract space cannot raise the cash for this kind of tender any more so they need someone to replace them.

I am sceptical as to whether:

1. ExIm and CDB banks will fund these infrastructure plays. They would fund telecoms and energy but Roads or especially PPP Roads, I am very sceptical.
2. The Chinese have long memories and the COVEC fiasco in Poland will not have been forgotten. It is easier to source rocks for road building in Romania ....generally, which is good.

Romania does not have as bad a reputation in its treatment of contractors as Poland and in the normal run of things Romania would be seen as safer than Poland but cancelling the Alpinebau contract at 80%+ completion rather than allowing the receivers to carry out a quick sale and project restart (to get some cash for the creditors), together with the Bechtel mess at the same time make Romania a difficult sell at present.....but not as hard a sell as Poland.

Local construction operations have no source of finance in the €200m plus range, unlike the Spaniards who had their own pet banks in the past, and I am sceptical they can fill the gap.

I think the hot infrastructure money will go to countries with a history of not terminating contracts and paying up in the end. Bulgaria Macedonia Albania Croatia Serbia and Hungary look safer and they all have applications in for EU funding 2014-2020 too.

Just a small correction: Romania did not cancel the Bechtel and Alpine contracts. In Bechtel case, the contract was terminated by an agreement of parties, and in Alpine's case, the contractor exited the contract due to bankruptcy.


BTW: China Development Bank is looking to open office in Romania to fund these large infrastructure projects.
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 07:35 AM   #6363
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Originally Posted by AnOldBlackMarble View Post
I'm confused. Why are they making such complex junctions with simple country roads? Why not just make simple parallel ramps that would cost one fifth the price? I can't understand why a country that has trouble making money would build such a wasteful and useless but expensive interchange system, that is also a lot less efficient in moving traffic?
Forest?!
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 09:28 AM   #6364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnOldBlackMarble View Post
I'm confused. Why are they making such complex junctions with simple country roads? Why not just make simple parallel ramps that would cost one fifth the price? I can't understand why a country that has trouble making money would build such a wasteful and useless but expensive interchange system, that is also a lot less efficient in moving traffic?
There must be infinite wisdom in building junctions like this. However, the Zen philosophy still eludes, dazes and confuses. Me included.
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 12:56 PM   #6365
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Just a small correction: Romania did not cancel the Bechtel and Alpine contracts. In Bechtel case, the contract was terminated by an agreement of parties, and in Alpine's case, the contractor exited the contract due to bankruptcy.
Cool.

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BTW: China Development Bank is looking to open office in Romania to fund these large infrastructure projects.
CDB or ExIm, or both. I think ExIm funds roads projects.

ExIm Bank is managing a 'special' Chinese US$10bn fund for SE European infrastructure and has committed $1.4bn of that to parts of the Bar - Belgrade - Bucharest so called Corridor 11 project ( I think 11 is not on the official EU Corridor list but I accept that it is important if the locals say it is). Not all of this US$10bn will be spent on roads either. Some will go into energy projects.

Links 1 and 2 from July and lets say that the Bridge of Friendship, in Belgrade, will remain friendly.

However in each case the work must be done by a Chinese company. Romania is an EU member and while Romania and Bulgaria may be able to avail of some of these Chinese funds I think that procuring from a single supplier nominated by the Chinese government may not be allowed under EU Rules...Romania has been in procurement wars before with Bechtel.

Serbia and Montenegro and Albania are free to do a deal with anyone they like, on the other hand, as is Turkey.

If Turkey wins the Olympics in 2020 a lot of medium term priorities will change by next week, even in Romania. Finishing a Motorway from Istanbul to Budapest (via Romania) will be one such priority.
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 01:30 PM   #6366
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Are Lugoj - Dumbrava / Orastie - Sebes Vest / Sebes Est - Lancram all sections of the same highway?
Do I understand correctly the section Dumbrava - Deva still needs to be completed?
I ask this for a planned trip Budapest - Arad - Sibiu. I know the M43 stops now at Makó, any idea when from Mako till the Romanian border should be ready?
Thanks for the help
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 01:40 PM   #6367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
....

If Turkey wins the Olympics in 2020 a lot of medium term priorities will change by next week, even in Romania. Finishing a Motorway from Istanbul to Budapest (via Romania) will be one such priority.
why should Romania take special care and invest funds in someone business ?
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 02:49 PM   #6368
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A priority in Brussels, who pay up to 85% of the construction cost of a Romanian motorway project.
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 03:00 PM   #6369
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thks for posting, i was not aware. personally i am convinced a developing country with cash such as china could be a great combination to deliver large projects quickly and well.

however Eu regulations and multilateral organizations guidelines might exclude the large chinese builders and their cash from the most bureaucratic public projects.
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 03:13 PM   #6370
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A priority in Brussels, who pay up to 85% of the construction cost of a Romanian motorway project.
I don't get it. The priority in Brussels concerning Romania will change because of Olympics in Turkey ?
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 04:03 PM   #6371
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South Eastern European Priorities will generally change, yes.

Every EU country applied for funding from 2014-2020 for TEN-T (West Europe) and Pan European corridor (East Europe) transport projects. The applications all went in during H1 2013.

The EU in 2007-2013 priority funded the A1 Motorway in Romania, the application for funding to complete the A1 through the Carpathians has met with great amusement in Brussels, €30m a km or €3bn plus was the estimate for c.100km of road.

They expected €2bn or so as it is not as technically or seismically complex as the Variente de Valico in Italy That 100km project would take up around 10% of EU Road funding from 2014-2020 all on its own if they agreed to those costings....and so far they have not agreed to the costings.

However the EU do believe that one complete high quality corridor (eg Pan-European Corridor IV from Istanbul to Vienna OR ELSE Pan-European Corridor X from Istanbul to Vienna too) , and by 2020 is a must and their choice route seems to be veering towards Serbia/Bulgaria who can seemingly complete such a route for ....€3bn or so I am told. Pan European Corridor IV was first designation 20 years ago when Serbia was sanctioned and fighting a war or two AND Romania and Bulgaria were heading towards EU Accession talks.

To further complicate matters the Serbs/Montenegrins and Chinese have between them 'invented' 'Pan European Corridor XI' (it was not not Brussels where no such route officially exists) and the sections to be built (as linked above today) are to be funded by the Chinese and built by the Chinese ...who move onsite this month... ( and a section by the Azeris who are onsite). Above all else the Serbs want to get cracking before all the insane EU environmental rules kick in and delay everything for years. How very sensible of them.

Geopolitically speaking, Serbian Roads are a hot spot nowadays. Accession negotiations start shortly and Serbia could be an EU member by 2020, unlikely but possible.

'Pan European Corridor XI' ends in Timisoara and was discussed on SSC before[/URL]. I expect nothing official will be said in Bucharest this year as the EU funding for 2014-2020 will be finalised by November/December 2013.
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Last edited by sponge_bob; September 3rd, 2013 at 09:28 PM. Reason: made cleared that there are two possible roads from Vienna to Istanbul
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 04:26 PM   #6372
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still I do not get the Olympics will be a trigger
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 04:29 PM   #6373
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Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
However the EU do believe that one complete high quality corridor (Pan-European Corridor IV) from Istanbul to Vienna , and by 2020 is a must and their choice route seems to be veering towards Serbia/Bulgaria who can seemingly complete such a route for ....€3bn or so I am told.
3bn Euro for what - Sofia-Nis motorway?
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 05:04 PM   #6374
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God no, that includes work in Slovenia and Croatia and around Belgrade too.
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 05:29 PM   #6375
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Istanbul Olympics in 2020 won't trigger EU to spend extra money on Corridor IV in Bulgaria and Romania.
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 08:03 PM   #6376
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this is my understanding too. I cannot see any reason to speed up any corridor in any different country than Oplymipcs origin
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 08:20 PM   #6377
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That's an awesomely informative post that needs quotation and a bit of clarification:


Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
South Eastern European Priorities will generally change, yes.

Every EU country applied for funding from 2014-2020 for TEN-T (West Europe) and Pan European corridor (East Europe) transport projects. The applications all went in during H1 2013.

The EU in 2007-2013 priority funded the A1 Motorway in Romania, the application for funding to complete the A1 through the Carpathians has met with great amusement in Brussels, €30m a km or €3bn plus was the estimate for c.100km of road.

They expected €2bn or so as it is not as technically or seismically complex as the Variente de Valico in Italy That 100km project would take up around 10% of EU Road funding from 2014-2020 all on its own if they agreed to those costings....and so far they have not agreed to the costings.
And guess what?! They have just opened here the procedure to redo the feasibility study for the A1 section through the Carpathians (Sibiu-Pitesti section) - the big news these days. Could that be because of the EU rejecting the estimated price?!

Quote:
However the EU do believe that one complete high quality corridor (Pan-European Corridor IV) from Istanbul to Vienna , and by 2020 is a must and their choice route seems to be veering towards Serbia/Bulgaria who can seemingly complete such a route for ....€3bn or so I am told.
I have been saying this for quite a few times here: Romanian CIV south cannot compete with the Serbian route (CX), and therefore such route will be placed in oblivion by both the RO gov and the EU.

Quote:
To further complicate matters the Serbs/Montenegrins and Chinese have invented 'Pan European Corridor XI' ( not Brussels where no such route officially exists) and the sections to be built (as linked above today) are to be funded by the Chinese and built by the Chinese ...who move onsite this month... ( and a section by the Azeris who are onsite). Above all else the Serbs want to get cracking before all the insane EU environmental rules kick in and delay everything for years. How very sensible of them.
Yeap, Serbs and Montenegrins are profiting allright from still being unshackled by the EU rules, which are almost excluding the Chinese from such projects.

Quote:
Geopolitically speaking, Serbian Roads are a hot spot nowadays. Accession negotiations start shortly and Serbia could be an EU member by 2020, unlikely but possible.
Yeap, said that before here.

Quote:
'Pan European Corridor XI' ends in Timisoara and was discussed on SSC before[/URL]. I expect nothing official will be said in Bucharest this year as the EU funding for 2014-2020 will be finalised by November/December 2013.
Yeah, that's the treasure box we are all in for an impatient waiting.
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Last edited by Le Clerk; September 3rd, 2013 at 08:28 PM.
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 08:24 PM   #6378
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A priority in Brussels, who pay up to 85% of the construction cost of a Romanian motorway project.
Yeah, but the priority in Brussels tends to be bent by the local interests too, and the rest up to 100% of pay (or much more actually, as EU doesn't cover for expropriation costs or VAT costs - 24%).
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 09:24 PM   #6379
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And if Madrid wins (although Istambul seems more feasible), what would they build?
And if it is Tokio?
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 10:10 PM   #6380
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You can see how Greece strongly influenced the 2005 era Ten-T network as corridors were designed in readiness for the EU structural funds between 2007-2013. (they built almost nothing on the TEN-T list and shut down their freight rail network in 2012.)

Lets call that plan "All Roads Lead to Greece, 2005" shall we.

http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/...n/bulgaria.pdf
http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/...bulggreece.pdf
http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/...an/romania.pdf

By late 2012 a lot of these Greek 'EU Core Networks' had sort of disappeared, except the ones completed by 2012. Unheard of that. Even though the graphic below is from 2012 ....no mention of Croatia shortly before EU Accession. Never mind the rest of the balkan hole.

graphic from > http://ec.europa.eu/bepa/pdf/cef_brochure.pdf



This time around the EU have quietly abandoned TINA and no Needs assessments were published coming up to 2014. Not a sausage.

But they are mindful of what is coming down the pipeline from Turkey ( whether they get the Olympics or not, eg the Bridge and the Motorway and Europes Biggest Airport

All have been tendered, the bridge has started as has the motorway. And they will push a lot of traffic up towards Vienna and by 2016/7 .

In a multi year envelope like the EU funding plan you can put projects up or down the queue as required, so what would the EU do were it rational and indulging in network centric thinking???
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