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Old November 11th, 2013, 08:28 AM   #6761
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In my opinion, if Comarnic-Brasov is contracted, and that is very likely to happen by end-year, this is what will happen. The EU will accept to fund Sibiu-Brasov (which in part is Transilvania motorway, from Fagaras to Brasov), and possibly Brasov-Bacau. This implies a change of TEN-T route from Sibiu-Pitesti to Ploiesti-Brasov-Sibiu, and opening another one to Bacau. If Brasov-Bacau is not accepted by the EU for funding, there will be a good case for a PPP there - oor funding from the budget under the new tax raised for motorways in value of 0.5 billion/year.
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Old November 11th, 2013, 01:30 PM   #6762
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alwn View Post
No, we don't have a long term plan, we just have corrupt and incompetent politicians. In fact we are just drawing the map like we did in the last 20 years without any base, figures, studies.
Have you ever heard about the National Anticorruption Department (DNA)?
It is the best in Europe with excellent results against high-level corruption in the last 5 years! Corrupt officials do not sleep peacefully in Romania any more!
DNA is praised by the European Commission, it is used as an example for other member countries.
Today, all the neighboring countries are more corrupt than Romania starting with Orban's Hungary!
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Old November 11th, 2013, 02:07 PM   #6763
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Romanian anti-corruption department (DNA) might be a good one, but unfortunately we also have to make some steps forward with the justice system because most of the trials we have in Romania last for several years (too long period) and the sentences are too mild (most of them are "cu suspendare" which means that nobody will do 1 day of prison).

But this is a road-related thread, so we should get back on-topic.
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Old November 11th, 2013, 06:19 PM   #6764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fahrenheit 10 View Post
Have you ever heard about the National Anticorruption Department (DNA)?
It is the best in Europe with excellent results against high-level corruption in the last 5 years! Corrupt officials do not sleep peacefully in Romania any more!
DNA is praised by the European Commission, it is used as an example for other member countries.
Today, all the neighboring countries are more corrupt than Romania starting with Orban's Hungary!
Whats the matter with you?? Read this before declaring bosh..

http://www.transparency.org/cpi2012/results

Denmark(1) is the cleanest from corruption, while worst hit country is Somalia(174) in the world!
Hungary is on the 46th place which is not good, while Romania is at 66th, much worse..

Hands off from Hungary..
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Old November 11th, 2013, 06:47 PM   #6765
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sisimoto the HUN View Post
Whats the matter with you?? Read this before declaring bosh..

http://www.transparency.org/cpi2012/results

Denmark(1) is the cleanest from corruption, while worst hit country is Somalia(174) in the world!
Hungary is on the 46th place which is not good, while Romania is at 66th, much worse..

Hands off from Hungary..
your statistic is useless because it is about the perception of corruption not about how corrupt a country is. I am not saying that Romania doesn't strugle with corruption, but romanians are much more critical of their country than any other nation that I know.

L.E. well I forgot about Italy! Italy in your statistic are on 72th place....which show that those numbers have nothing to do with how corrupt a country really is.
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Old November 11th, 2013, 06:48 PM   #6766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fahrenheit 10 View Post
Have you ever heard about the National Anticorruption Department (DNA)?
It is the best in Europe with excellent results against high-level corruption in the last 5 years! Corrupt officials do not sleep peacefully in Romania any more!
DNA is praised by the European Commission, it is used as an example for other member countries.
Today, all the neighboring countries are more corrupt than Romania starting with Orban's Hungary!



Can we move on now!?
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Old November 11th, 2013, 06:49 PM   #6767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
Romanian anti-corruption department (DNA) might be a good one, but unfortunately we also have to make some steps forward with the justice system because most of the trials we have in Romania last for several years (too long period) and the sentences are too mild (most of them are "cu suspendare" which means that nobody will do 1 day of prison).

But this is a road-related thread, so we should get back on-topic.
Yes, the Romanian Anticorruption Body is a model recognized by the EU, but this does not help us build motorways faster. Let's just skip this subject.
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Old November 11th, 2013, 07:20 PM   #6768
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What's the latest data on AADT on Brasov- Bacau, Tg. Mures - Bacau, Ploesti - Bacau and Sibiu - Pitesti? What's the AADT projection after the construction of the motorways?

New Europe bridge site with traffic data.
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Old November 11th, 2013, 07:35 PM   #6769
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Im afraid y are not wrong. It is not normal to come in 2013 with new ideas (Brasov- Bacau) instead of following the long-term plan. But do we have any long term plan? I mean based on feasibility studies? If we have how come we can afford to change it every 4 years after the elections? and build almost nothing.
We are surpassed twice by Bulgaria in terms of km of motorways/ country surface. But bulgarians have a long-term plan and they are just following, not change every time.
For at least 20 years ( i would say better 40) we knew that Pitesti- Sibiu should be a segment of the connection of Bucharest to Budapest. Today the actual gov is trying to change this route in favour of Bucharest- Brasov (which btw was also a prority in the old plans). EU doesn't know about this new route and maybe they will be reluctant regarding the changes.

Other new smart ideas are just in incubator..
Le Clerck says that a motorway Brasov- Bacau- Iasi could replace 2 planned Iasi- Tg Mures- Cluj and Bucharest- Ploiesti- Buzau- Bacau- Iasi. One instead of two sounds too good to be real.
But does Le Clerck know any feasibility study indicating how many cars willl be willing to travel from Bucharest to east side of Romania through Brasov, basically taking a big detour through north west? and paying the motorway toll?
Or how many cars currently using Pitesti- Sibiu would change to the new motorway Ploiesti- Brasov? Or how much would cost Brasov- Bacau which is actually situated not exacly in the plain?
Not to mention the discussion about A6 Bucharest- Alexandria- Caracal- Craiova just replaced with Pitesti- Craiova.. Does anyone know any feasibility study basis for this change? I don't say that Pitesti - Craiova is a wrong idea but why this one instead of Alexandria?
Anybody knows what planns are in order to link a big metropolitan area (and industrial as well) Braila- Galati with the motorway network? It was an old plan, to build an expressway Buzau- Braila, today abandoned

No, we don't have a long term plan, we just have corrupt and incompetent politicians. In fact we are just drawing the map like we did in the last 20 years without any base, figures, studies.
this is more-less what I feel about it..
well, I cannot read Romanian section of SSC, but did any of the Romanian motorway infrastcure enthusiasts draw a map like this (see below)
this one is dedicated for Polish national roads, but clearly shows the next 10 years. to be 100% honest with you Polish Road Authorities (GDDKiA) does not publish that kind of map, it is prepared by SSC enthusiasts.

sorry if I compare this detail map of Poland with data from Romanian map (see bottom of my post) it does not look charmful. I do not mean the quantity of roads u/c or operational motorways. I do mean details


Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
This is the whole extent of the proposed change:




I'll let others explain the implications.
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Old November 11th, 2013, 07:56 PM   #6770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhirgataZFs1694 View Post
What's the latest data on AADT on Brasov- Bacau, Tg. Mures - Bacau, Ploesti - Bacau and Sibiu - Pitesti? What's the AADT projection after the construction of the motorways?

New Europe bridge site with traffic data.
The AADT for DN 2, which Bacau-Brasov motorway will provide an alternative, is around 35 k. The AADT will probably grow a lot if a motorway is built.
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Old November 11th, 2013, 08:31 PM   #6771
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Quote:
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The AADT for DN 2, which Bacau-Brasov motorway will provide an alternative, is around 35 k. The AADT will probably grow a lot if a motorway is built.
Wouldn't it grow too much? It looks that A6, A1, A5 and Tg.Mures-Bacau might lag behind considering EU policy to reduce motorways funds. These means that this section might need to be built 2x3 from scratch.

In Bulgaria traffic is generated around the cities and aglomerations and transit traffic is generally low with few exceptions. I think romanian traffic pattern is not that different. Considering this, IMO Brasov-Bacau would be unlikely feasible as a motorway project now.
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Old November 11th, 2013, 08:40 PM   #6772
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It's the second busiest route in Romania. And it is also the second requiring a motorway by traffic. 35 k is more than ok for a motorway, even under PPP.
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Old November 11th, 2013, 08:58 PM   #6773
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhirgataZFs1694 View Post
Wouldn't it grow too much? It looks that A6, A1, A5 and Tg.Mures-Bacau might lag behind considering EU policy to reduce motorways funds. These means that this section might need to be built 2x3 from scratch.

In Bulgaria traffic is generated around the cities and aglomerations and transit traffic is generally low with few exceptions. I think romanian traffic pattern is not that different. Considering this, IMO Brasov-Bacau would be unlikely feasible as a motorway project now.
PS: There is no need for 2x3 motorway in between Bacau and Brasov because Bacau-Ploiesti motorway will also be built at some point.
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Old November 11th, 2013, 09:41 PM   #6774
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
It's the second busiest route in Romania. And it is also the second requiring a motorway by traffic. 35 k is more than ok for a motorway, even under PPP.
Oops. I was thinking about Ploiesti-Brasov.
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PS: There is no need for 2x3 motorway in between Bacau and Brasov because Bacau-Ploiesti motorway will also be built at some point.
I meant that Ploiesti-Brasov should be build as 2x3 and that Ploiesti-Buzau might lag behind and Ploiesti-Brasov would end up overcrowded(40+35?).
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Old November 11th, 2013, 09:50 PM   #6775
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Originally Posted by PhirgataZFs1694 View Post
Ploiesti-Brasov would end up overcrowded(40+35?).
I think it is better having one (completed but) overcrowded motorway connection than having no motorway at all.

Drivers would also avoid a congested route if there would be a reasonable alternative using non motorways. This could reduce traffic on the overcrowed motorway route again.
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Old November 11th, 2013, 10:17 PM   #6776
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fahrenheit 10 View Post
Have you ever heard about the National Anticorruption Department (DNA)?
It is the best in Europe with excellent results against high-level corruption in the last 5 years! Corrupt officials do not sleep peacefully in Romania any more!
DNA is praised by the European Commission, it is used as an example for other member countries.
Today, all the neighboring countries are more corrupt than Romania starting with Orban's Hungary!
DNA is doing an excellent work. But it is not enough. As Bogdymol says justice system still remains behind.. I dont have knowledge about the corruption in Hungary. Sorry for off topic
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Old November 11th, 2013, 11:40 PM   #6777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
The AADT for DN 2, which Bacau-Brasov motorway will provide an alternative, is around 35 k. The AADT will probably grow a lot if a motorway is built.
From where you have these numbers? It may be so near Bucharest but then I think it's more or less around 15-20000 cars/day. And AADT on DN2 gives totally no clue about AADT on a future Brasov-Bacau motorway. You are two enthusiastic with the numbers, also for the numbers for a motorway between Brasov and Comarnic. You can not compare AADT on DN1 near Ploiesti (and more, between Bucharest and Ploiesti, with a lot of commuting traffic) with the AADT on Comarnic-Brasov.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 12:11 AM   #6778
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DN 2 was 32.5 k near Buzau in 2010. That is 150 km away from Bucharest. That is not local traffic at all. That is transit.
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Recensamant trafic rutier 2010 efectuat de CNADRN - estimarea este ca cifrele se vor dubla pana in 2020:

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Old November 12th, 2013, 01:05 PM   #6779
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[QUOTE=Le Clerk;108729172]
Quote:
That's no big detour. The distances to Bucharest will be roughly the same, while this route will open, for the first time, a dirrect motorway route to western Europe for east Romania, which will be taken by trucks coming from Romania, Ukraine, Moldova Russia and going to the west, or viceversa. These very trucks need to go now to Ploiesti first and then go up to Brasov again. So, the motorway will be a huge improvement for trucks, and they will take that route and pay the tolls.

In the previous version, all trucks coming from east Romania would have to go all the way to Bucharest, and then take A1 :Bucharest-Pitesti-Sibiu-Nadlac. This proposal however is a huge improvement because it cuts that route by at least 250 km. Here's a map for those who don't know the cities we are talking about:
In the previous version we were supposed to build Iasi- Tg Mures motorway thus connecting east- west straight.

The idea of Brasov- Bacau is not a bad one. Definitelly is a detour however it could be cheaper. But we don't know this before any study will be undertook.
Iasi- Tg Mures- Oradea 583 km vs Iasi- Bacau- Brasov- Sibiu- Arad 732 km.
So 150 km extra vs a cheaper cost for the mountains sector.

Bucharest- Bacau through Brasov.
So, on the current DN2 (1x4) 289 km, about 4 hours.
By motorway: 170 km Bucharest- Brasov 2 hours; 180 km Brasov- Bacau 2 hours, 20 km north belt of Brasov, so 80 km more and roughly the same travelling time like as on DN2. If we count also the motorway toll why would you consider to be a viable alternative for Bucharest- Bacau? Personally I would pick DN2 instead of Bucharest- Brasov- Bacau.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 01:13 PM   #6780
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There! Bucharest-Brasov will probably not get very busy with Bucharest-Bacau traffic which will keep taking DN2.
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