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Old December 9th, 2013, 01:32 AM   #6941
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post

For the international readers: this is a map from the '60.
That 60s plan looks rather good even 50 years or so later. How is it coming along????
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Old December 9th, 2013, 08:46 AM   #6942
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A1 near Sibiu - to be opened soon:
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Originally Posted by dojaalex View Post
Lancram via Schneider Productions.



Pod 32+200 peste Cf

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Old December 9th, 2013, 10:07 AM   #6943
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This will be my last post on this matter in this thread. I don't want to ruin this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
The masterplan that we have now
We don't have any masterplan. We have a political promises map.

A masterplan is, besides a colored map, tens of pages of analysis of transportation. A good transport masterplan will analyze:
  • the current transportation infrastructure (regional infrastructure and national infrastructure)
  • the current traffic patterns
  • the local traffic as well as the transit one
  • where are located the main industrial parks and largest factories and their transportation needs
  • local factors
  • the AADT (anual average daily traffic) on each vehicle category (cars, trucks, buses etc.) on each stretch of road
  • the transportation demand (goods movement, people movement)
  • safety and security of each transportation type, and in this case roads: how road safety can be improved
  • the country's economical situation today and the prognosis for the next 20 years
  • etc.

After the team that has to do the masterplan analyzes all of the above (and other factors that I might have forgot about), they do several masterplan scenarios, with which:
  • develop strategic transport model
  • determine transport impacts and benefits
  • economic evaluation of preferred scenarios
  • they do road corridor optimization
  • environmental analysis
  • etc.

After the masterplan is sketched, the only thing remaining to do is to develop a logical plan for prioritising and implementing the recommended policies and capital improvement projects that need to be addressed in the next 20 years within the context of phased 5 years plans

The masterplan will also produce a clear and realistic 'vision' of what Romania's future transport will look like and will generate strategies and policies to help make that vision a reality.

* Please note that a transportation masterplan doesn't focus only on road transportation, but on all types of transportation (by rail, air or water). All this transportation types have to be connected to each other for a healthy transportation network.

After the masterplan is completed, it has to be approved by the state and all the politicians that will come and go on high rankings (parliment members, government members etc.) have to respect it. Please note that only in this stage the political factor is involved.

Examples: check out Qatar's transport masterplan and Ottawa City (Canada) transport masterplan.

@LeClerk: now, does that map drew by our politicians still look like a masterplan?
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Old December 9th, 2013, 04:48 PM   #6944
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Ain't that routes in the masterplan according to the current traffic needs, AADT, safety, security, road optimisation, etc ?!

I say it damn is!

_____________________________________________

BTW: these are the 2 offers for Comarnic-Brasov:

VISTRADA Nord (Vinci/ Franţa, Strabag/Austria şi Aktor /Grecia)

Impregilo SpA/Salini (Italia)

Financial offers have not yet been made public.
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Old December 9th, 2013, 11:27 PM   #6945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
Ain't that routes in the masterplan according to the current traffic needs, AADT, safety, security, road optimisation, etc ?!

I say it damn is!
As I said before, I won't argue with you anymore on this subject. IMO you are, how we say in Romania, "caz irecuperabil".

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Old December 9th, 2013, 11:46 PM   #6946
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Thank you for the ad hominem! That's a great closing argument.

Somehow, just to close up, they got it right. Without spending millions and months on writing hundreds of pages of BS when the obvious is out there.
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Old December 10th, 2013, 12:00 AM   #6947
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
Thank you for the ad hominem! That's a great closing argument.

Somehow, just to close up, they got it right. Without spending millions and months on writing hundreds of pages of BS when the obvious is out there.
i think you must be delirious! you must be!!! don't smoke that much dope...it goes to your head!
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Old December 10th, 2013, 12:17 AM   #6948
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
We don't have any masterplan. We have a political promises map.
There is, however, a Partnership or a Draft Partnership Agreement between the EU and the individual member states. It would be a full final Partnership Agreement soon.

It details where and how the EU Funding is to be spent from 2014 to 2020 and many countries have already published their national version. I think Romania and Greece have not published anything at this time, I certainly never saw it.
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Old December 10th, 2013, 12:49 AM   #6949
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
And I am not even the most fervent proponent of this masterplan in the Romania section.
I don't believe you

Anyway, please, remember to post news about Comarnic-Brasov tonight
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Old December 10th, 2013, 07:23 AM   #6950
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vchira View Post
i think you must be delirious! you must be!!! don't smoke that much dope...it goes to your head!
There's another argument, and a very reasonable one about the masterplan.

________________________________________

I'll say it again, maybe it's more clear this time: we do not neeed the obvious to be put in hundreds of pages of studies, with milions spent and years passed for that purpose, because they know how to do that. Ussually, we do not want this type of studies, but for some reasons, just because some people are against "in principle", we think the opposite now.

Yes, the water is wet and the sky is blue! And Bucharest Brasov and DN12 are the most trafficked roads in Romania, and for some reasons also one of the most dangerous roads in Romania. And there are studies for that purpose. They also connect one of the most important economic centers in Romania. But hell no! We need a hundred page study to tell us that.

Instead of having them actually building we should have them spend money and time on paper work that has been alreeady overdone and it's pretty well known.
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Old December 10th, 2013, 07:27 AM   #6951
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhirgataZFs1694 View Post
I don't believe you

Anyway, please, remember to post news about Comarnic-Brasov tonight
And I say it again it'll be a party in the Romanian section when works start.
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Old December 10th, 2013, 09:07 AM   #6952
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Final and binding offers have been submitted. Award on 20 Dec.


Quote:
Vinci-Strabag-Aktor And Impregilo-Salini Submit Final Bids For Comarnic-Brasov Highway Construction
yesterday, 17:50 By Oana Gavrila

Consortia Vinci (France)-Strabag (Austria)-Aktor (Greece) and Impregilo-Salini (Italy) submitted final bids Monday for the construction of Romania’s Comarnic-Brasov highway section, Romanian authorities said.
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Old December 10th, 2013, 11:45 AM   #6953
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
As I said before, I won't argue with you anymore on this subject. IMO you are, how we say in Romania, "caz irecuperabil".
mamy times I was surprised the way Le Clerk was selling ideas. just not to mention 2000 of new motorways by 2020 :-)

anyway I believe you guys represent two different worlds

you, personally expect the following pattern: think first, do later
Le Clerk prefers: lets do something, we have so many needs. anything we do would be good for us.

and yes, it is true, Romania does not have any masterplan. I find "the plan" posted by Le Clerk is no more than a politicans promise.

personally I hate doing something without the correct planning/good background... but maybe this is the way for Romania ?
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Old December 10th, 2013, 11:52 AM   #6954
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Without commenting any further, this is exactly what Romania needs in terms of next level motorways, after completing the current projects. There are enough studies of traffic, and dangerous areas, and this plan aims to address just that.


Whoever says we need more studies, would probably say the opposite the moment they'd tender for more studies. We need tenders for motorway works and actual works going on.
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Old December 10th, 2013, 02:34 PM   #6955
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Surely the 'one link between north and south' map deliberately ignores the expressways on the 'masterplan'. The Pitesti-Sibiu crossing is marked as expressway on that, plus you have the southern corridor with its DTS-Lugoj mountain-crossing expressway too.
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Old December 10th, 2013, 06:59 PM   #6956
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Double quote. That says a lot about the hypocrisy of the uninformed opinions we've seen here. That Bucharest-Brasov will be the only motorway crossing the mountains. It's not going to be that at all ! But being against, even without arguments, is cool for a lot of people.
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Old December 10th, 2013, 07:03 PM   #6957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi
Surely the 'one link between north and south' map deliberately ignores the expressways on the 'masterplan'. The Pitesti-Sibiu crossing is marked as expressway on that, plus you have the southern corridor with its DTS-Lugoj mountain-crossing expressway too.
You're reading the map wrong. The dashed lines don't represent expressways, they represent motorways (or expressways, though they are not explicitely mentioned) that are less of a priority and are to be built later, sometime around 2023, maybe never. So the map clearly states that there is only one priority mountain crossing from the south to the north of the country for the next 10 years. Not so encouraging, is it?
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Old December 10th, 2013, 08:40 PM   #6958
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medicu' de garda View Post
You're reading the map wrong. The dashed lines don't represent expressways, they represent motorways (or expressways, though they are not explicitely mentioned) that are less of a priority and are to be built later, sometime around 2023, maybe never. So the map clearly states that there is only one priority mountain crossing from the south to the north of the country for the next 10 years. Not so encouraging, is it?
This is an error of logic. That is, your note that it would be only one motorway. Here's why you are in error:

1. Were Sibiu-Pitesti motorway built, we would still have one (1) mountain motorway crossing by 2020. Yet, that would serve only one corridor.

2. The masterplan aims at least two (2) mountain motorway crossings by 2020, that is Comarnic-Brasov and Brasov-Bacau. Yet, these would serve the most important traffic corridors in Romania, unlike Sibiu-Pitesti which would serve only one. For the first time, east Romania would have an opening to the west through a motorway. Sibiu-Pitesti doesn't offer that, and would delay such opening for at least one damn decade !!

3. It is not true that building only one motorway section by 2020 would annul other mountain crossings after that date. In fact, not least than five (5) mountain motorway crossings are shown in the masterplan. These would obviously alleviate a lot the "dramatic" traffic expected on Brasov-Bucharest motorway, a traffic that would almost 'scare" some into not building this section at all. As in "drobul de sare"* story.

*This is a Romanian parabole about how people can be frozen in action because of a false, imaginate threat.
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Last edited by Le Clerk; December 10th, 2013 at 08:50 PM.
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Old December 10th, 2013, 08:45 PM   #6959
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lets do something, we have so many needs. anything we do would be good for us.
and yes, it is true, Romania does not have any masterplan. I find "the plan" posted by Le Clerk is no more than a politicans promise.
Exactly! The map is not a comprehensive masterplan, but I think the need for getting better road connections soon is more urgent than spending time and money for a detailed masterplan.

NATO mode (no action, talk only) is not what Romania needs. I am glad that Romania seems to take a pragmatic way now (I don't want to mention how stupid Germany is planning its "network" since decades - especially in the most industrialized and richest southern part).

btw: Comarnic-Brasov will be the first mountain crossing (b/n central and southern Romania) but it will not remain the only one for all time! Building a motorway network must be done step by step...
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Old December 10th, 2013, 08:49 PM   #6960
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Quote:
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2. The masterplan aims at least two (2) mountain motorway crossings by 2020, that is Comarnic-Brasov and Brasov-Bacau. Yet, these would serve the most important traffic corridors in Romania, unlike Sibiu-Pitesti which would serve only one.
Would you really bet brasov-bacau will be constructed? Who will give the money for that? There's no plan, nothing, just some line on a map.

I noticed that you're really optimistic, but seriously you can't believe that plan will be done as they say. And would you really think that the current gov will last more than one more year and a new government will not do any replaning on such a wonderful "master plan"?
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