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Old December 10th, 2013, 08:53 PM   #6961
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slakero View Post
And would you really think that the current gov will last more than one more year and a new government will not do any replaning on such a wonderful "master plan"?
I guess that's the main problem. You must hurry up and get through the projects. It is much easier to reject a masterplan (documents only) than stopping an ongoing construction.
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Old December 10th, 2013, 08:58 PM   #6962
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Would you really bet brasov-bacau will be constructed? Who will give the money for that? There's no plan, nothing, just some line on a map.

I noticed that you're really optimistic, but seriously you can't believe that plan will be done as they say. And would you really think that the current gov will last more than one more year and a new government will not do any replaning on such a wonderful "master plan"?
It is true that the next government could annul this masterplan. Heck, they could annul just as easy a 300 pager, EUR 4 mil masterplan.

BUT, the next gov will not be able to annul what was contracted before their coming to power, i.e. Brasov-Comarnic, and that will at least give a chance to Brasov-Bacau. Sibiu-Pitesti doesn't give any chance for a motorway connecting east Romania to the Romanian motorway network.
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Old December 10th, 2013, 09:18 PM   #6963
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There are enough studies of traffic, and dangerous areas, and this plan aims to address just that.

Whoever says we need more studies, would probably say the opposite the moment they'd tender for more studies. We need tenders for motorway works and actual works going on.
The problem is that there is NO reasonable traffic study in Romania. The last one was done manually and probably is far from reality. A traffic study will probably show that the two motorways in discussion (VO vs VP) will not affect each other so much as many of us think. I expect that no more than 10% of the traffic from VO will move to VP if the motorway is completed and viceversa. The 2 motorways are quite far from each other and are used from people coming and going from/to different destinations. Also you can not expect to remove some traffic from DN2 with a motorway Bacau-Brasov. The influence of the motorway on the traffic on DN2 will be very small. But I have no values. I expect from a traffic study to provide these values.
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Old December 10th, 2013, 09:24 PM   #6964
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Doesn't the EU demand proper planning instruments for allocating funding to Romanian road projects?
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Old December 10th, 2013, 09:59 PM   #6965
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What do you mean?! Like a FS? That's a requirement in the Romanian law too.
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Old December 10th, 2013, 10:00 PM   #6966
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This is an error of logic. That is, your note that it would be only one motorway. Here's why you are in error:
[...]bla bla bla [...]
I was just correcting our fellow forumer that didn't understand the meaning of the lines, which led to a incorect conclusion. I don't wish to participate in this seriously outdated and childish debate, which has already went on for months with no conclusion and caused the banning of several forum members. This is nothing more than a deaf-man discussion, based on some political statements and some .pdf that was written almost overnight. There is no real bydget, no piece of paper from the EU, NOTHING to justify these talks.

So please, out of respect for our fellow forum members on the international community, spare us your arguments . At least until after the discussions with the EU officials...
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Old December 10th, 2013, 10:00 PM   #6967
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Originally Posted by panda80 View Post
The problem is that there is NO reasonable traffic study in Romania. The last one was done manually and probably is far from reality. A traffic study will probably show that the two motorways in discussion (VO vs VP) will not affect each other so much as many of us think. I expect that no more than 10% of the traffic from VO will move to VP if the motorway is completed and viceversa. The 2 motorways are quite far from each other and are used from people coming and going from/to different destinations. Also you can not expect to remove some traffic from DN2 with a motorway Bacau-Brasov. The influence of the motorway on the traffic on DN2 will be very small. But I have no values. I expect from a traffic study to provide these values.
I tend to agree with you, though this is not evidence by a study.

This would also mean that Brasov-Comarnic would not get that "dramatically" clogged with traffic.
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Old December 10th, 2013, 10:01 PM   #6968
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Originally Posted by medicu' de garda View Post
So please, out of respect for our fellow forum members on the international community, spare us your arguments . At least until after the discussions with the EU officials...
I have not opened this debate.

Secondly, the EU has nothing to do with this debate, since the EU does not finance Brasov-Comarnic.
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Old December 10th, 2013, 10:17 PM   #6969
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Still, Romania is an EU member and must comply to EU regulations for planning and procedure. You can't draw a few lines on a map with paint and expect it to be under construction 2 years later. In most countries planning and procedures last at least 5 years.
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Old December 10th, 2013, 10:21 PM   #6970
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Chris, which would be those regulations on planning and procedure?

Secondly, I hope it'll not last 5 years to do just the planning for a motorway. For the name of God, construction lasts 2 years!
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Old December 10th, 2013, 10:27 PM   #6971
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Quote:
Comarnic-Brasov highway project attracts two bidders
By Newsroom Constructions December 10, 2013 10:11


Two foreign consortiums placed bids for the construction in concession of the 58 km Comarnic-Brasov highway, announced the department for large infrastructure projects and foreign investments (DPIIS).

The bidders are the Vistrada Nord consortium comprising France’s Vinci, Austria’s Strabag and Greece’s Aktor and another consortium made up of Italy’s Impregilo and Salini.

Romania’s UMB Spedition, a highway construction firm controlled by local businessperson Dorinel Umbrarescu, gave up its intention to submit an offer.

The DPIIS said the winning bidder will be announced on December 20.

The highway should be completed by the end of 2016, according to Narcis Neaga, general manager of the national roads and highways company CNADNR. The new projects is designed to ease traffic on the National Road 1 (DN1).
Source
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Old December 10th, 2013, 10:33 PM   #6972
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Doesn't the EU demand proper planning instruments for allocating funding to Romanian road projects?
You can check the road/motorway projects that EU can finance on this map:



bolded line: priority projects (core)
normal line: comprehensive network (secondary projects)
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Old December 10th, 2013, 10:40 PM   #6973
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Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
Secondly, I hope it'll not last 5 years to do just the planning for a motorway. For the name of God, construction lasts 2 years!
In most developed countries (which should include Romania), the planning process is something like this;

* political agreement to build and fund a motorway (there could be years or even decades of political talk before this).
* design a preliminary alignment, with several alternatives
* public hearing
* publishing a preferred alternative + environmental impact statement
* public comment
* publishing a final EIS
* public can appeal
* court decide about the appeals
* tender
* court handles possible tender appeals from constructors.

Building a court-proof EIS takes around 1 - 1.5 years. A typical EIS is around 1,000 pages. Public hearings and commenting periods are usually at least 6 weeks, but are often longer in the initial stage. Then most projects will go to court. It usually takes at least half a year to get a project through court, but in most countries it takes longer, 1 - 2 years is not unheard of. That assumes that the project will not fail before the judge. Then you have to go through land acquisition and possible appeals during the tender process.

Most countries do not achieve this in less than 5 years.
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Old December 10th, 2013, 10:46 PM   #6974
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If you mean Comarnic-Brasov, it has gone through most of the above stages, bar court challenges AFAIK. And I hope there will be no court challenges against the award on 20 Dec.

BTW: these are not EU requirements, but member state requirements, and they are part of so-called due process. In most cases, these stages do not take more than 2 years.
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Old December 10th, 2013, 10:47 PM   #6975
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
You can check the road/motorway projects that EU can finance on this map:



bolded line: priority projects (core)
normal line: comprehensive network (secondary projects)
Lugoj-Calafat is completed. Same as Calafat-Bucharest.
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Old December 10th, 2013, 10:49 PM   #6976
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
You can check the road/motorway projects that EU can finance on this map:
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Old December 10th, 2013, 10:51 PM   #6977
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The road on those sections was indeed completed and financed by the EU during 2007-2013. Does it mean that the EU is not interested in funding a motorway on these same sections for 2014-2020?!
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Old December 10th, 2013, 10:54 PM   #6978
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Ask them.

http://tentea.ec.europa.eu/en/contact_us.htm
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Old December 10th, 2013, 11:10 PM   #6979
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slakero View Post
[...] just some line on a map.
Just some line on a, and I quote him, "masterplan".
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Old December 11th, 2013, 09:02 AM   #6980
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Quote:
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No, I ask you. Is it a consistent map ?! Because the EU says some of the routes which would shorten the distances with western Europe are completed. And indeed they have benefitted from road upgrade recently, from EU funds. So, what is the point to mock a proposal that would solve other needs in Romania?!
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