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Old December 22nd, 2013, 09:15 PM   #7141
Le Clerk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
Here's the plan for A3 motoway near Comarnic:

As you can see, it starts with a 1 km long tunnel under Comarnic.

And if I just look on Google maps at the terrain between Comarnic and Sinaia I seriously doubt they can complete it in just 18 months. That's not an easy terrain for building motorways: http://goo.gl/maps/mflNA
Read the descriptive documentation available for bidders (Dec 2012). There is no tunnel in Comarnic, but only viaducts and bridges.


That's an old map you've got there. That is an older alternative proposal.
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Old December 22nd, 2013, 09:17 PM   #7142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by and802 View Post
my favourite one (Le Clerk' own opinion):



now my two cents:
many many times you were bringing (or qouting) here silly messages.
many many times you answered: this is not mine, it belongs to journalists.

you, as intelligent person should filter the news first, before posting, otherwise your posts do not look wise.
this is not spreading optimism. this looks like Romanians (even now you argue with alwn) believe in shit you post here.
You don't get the idea of discussing reports from the media here?! Are you bored with my posts, don't read them, and don't comment them. At least you'd spare us some stupid comments you make from time to time, while people are too decent to point that to you.
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Old December 22nd, 2013, 09:19 PM   #7143
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Ok, they mights changed the motorway plan, but still:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
Comarnic-Sinaia is a 14 km section with no tunnels, yet a few bridges and viaducts (5 if I remember well). It's possible to build it in 18 months.
Read this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
And if I just look on Google maps at the terrain between Comarnic and Sinaia I seriously doubt they can complete it in just 18 months. That's not an easy terrain for building motorways: http://goo.gl/maps/mflNA
We built 1 (just one) 9 km motorway in 18 months, in the plains near Timisoara. Do you think we can do it again with a 14-km long motorway in the mountains?
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Old December 22nd, 2013, 09:41 PM   #7144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
Ok, they mights changed the motorway plan, but still:
There is no tunnel in between Comarnic and Sinaia, but only bridges and viaducts.

Quote:
Read this:

We built 1 (just one) 9 km motorway in 18 months, in the plains near Timisoara. Do you think we can do it again with a 14-km long motorway in the mountains?
We are talking other companies here, in a different league. Comparison is not relevant.
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Old December 22nd, 2013, 09:54 PM   #7145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
There is no tunnel in between Comarnic and Sinaia, but only bridges and viaducts.
It's still a motorway in the mountains vs. motorway in the plains. Comparison is not relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
We are talking other companies here, in a different league. Comparison is not relevant.
I admit that this companies play in a different league, but they still build motorways in 2-3 years in Romania and abroad. Not 1.5 years.
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Old December 22nd, 2013, 10:10 PM   #7146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
There is no tunnel in between Comarnic and Sinaia, but only bridges and viaducts.



We are talking other companies here, in a different league. Comparison is not relevant.
bogdymol,
pointless discussion...

Le Clerk,
let me keep your original thoughts in my post and I will get back to them in what ? let's say 3 year time ?


as usual, and this time as well time will reveal the truth...
wonder what the truth will be this time...
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Old December 22nd, 2013, 10:28 PM   #7147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
There is no tunnel in between Comarnic and Sinaia, but only bridges and viaducts.



We are talking other companies here, in a different league. Comparison is not relevant.
Just an example of a project in Neuchâtel (which I cited before):
the "tunnel de Serrières", part of the Swiss A5 (Biel/Bienne - Yverdon-les-Bains).
Length: 1,73 km, 2x2 lane, which comprise 2 tunnels (one of aprox. 850 m, the other aprox 200 m) who underpass Neuchâtel.
Start of works: late april 2008, open for traffic: beginning 2014 (date postponed by almost 6 months), end of works: 2015.

Even if we are talking about companies who have a lot of experience in building roadtunnels (like Infratunnel, who is currently building this stretch of A5), the complexity of the works like the ones who are going to be started on the romanian A3 entitles me to say that a 2-year delay is unrealistic.
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Old December 22nd, 2013, 10:40 PM   #7148
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Swiss construction progress is one of the slowest in the world, I don't think it is representative for all tunnel construction. I think it's better to compare to Austria, where a short tunnel requires about 2.5 - 3 years and 4-5 years for a longer one (2-6 km). Norway has about the same tunnel construction speed.
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Old December 22nd, 2013, 10:43 PM   #7149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Swiss construction progress is one of the slowest in the world, I don't think it is representative for all tunnel construction. I think it's better to compare to Austria, where a short tunnel requires about 2.5 - 3 years and 4-5 years for a longer one (2-6 km). Norway has about the same tunnel construction speed.
Offtopic, but I was wondering why are they so slow? I mean the whole coutry is "filled" with tunnels..
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Old December 22nd, 2013, 11:29 PM   #7150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
There is no tunnel in between Comarnic and Sinaia, but only bridges and viaducts.
Ok, so I just browsed the original FS for the project (most of us agree that the Comarnic-Sinaia section will remain unchanged) to verify your claims. I was sure you were off by that statement.

I wasn't very thorough, but I still counted about 9 or 10 small tunnels between the two exits. Most of them are on just one carriageway, but they are still tunnels, no matter how small. They require a lot of time to build. Also, there are tons and tons of cuts in the terrain to acomodate the full width of the motorway, since we are talking about a very narrow river valley here, with a major railroad crossing through it. There is a reason they've built the DN1 on the mountainside, rather than down there.

Also, you say there are "just" bridges and viaducts to build. Only about 15 to build, to be exact. One of them is 1.5 km long, BTW . Also it's worth mentioning that the motorway crosses the river 9 times (often crossing it a bit and back again, or riding dirrectly over it) and the railroad 3 times. Oh, and the Prahova river needs to be regularized for about 4km. The rest of the course is right next to the most important railwayline in the country in a valley that has no public roads. Did I mention that Comarnic-Sinaia is 13 km long? . And I didn't count the DN1 overpass right after the Sinaia interchange, otherwise you should just add 1 to everything I counted.

No challenge whatsoever
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Old December 22nd, 2013, 11:40 PM   #7151
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At the end of 2015 it will be opened for traffic, full-profile, with 100% of works completed. I'm sure of it.

/joking
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Old December 23rd, 2013, 12:42 AM   #7152
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the example of Le Clerk is just a proof Romania is at the beginning of a long way to develop its own motorway infrastructure.

if somebody says:

a) the map of Romania is going to be covered with motorways within 10 years
b) argues 18 months is enough to finish a motorway in Prahova Valley

I browse motorway threads of other developed countries and could not spot a guy like him.

for me Le Clerk is a litmus paper.

as long as he pops up every second day with unbelievable ideas how fast construction process may take, it is a clear sign Romania is still at the beginning of the process.
the thing is he is not ashamed of his own posts. in my opinion he becomes ashamed with his revelations once Romania gets experience in a motorway construction field.
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Old December 23rd, 2013, 09:42 AM   #7153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by and802 View Post
bogdymol,
pointless discussion...

Le Clerk,
let me keep your original thoughts in my post and I will get back to them in what ? let's say 3 year time ?


as usual, and this time as well time will reveal the truth...
wonder what the truth will be this time...
As ussually you are do not have a clue about the point of discussion here. We are discussing possibilities here, since it is a future event. Of course the "truth" will not be known until when it happens. WTH is with these basic logical inferences!?!
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Old December 23rd, 2013, 09:55 AM   #7154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medicu' de garda View Post
Ok, so I just browsed the original FS for the project (most of us agree that the Comarnic-Sinaia section will remain unchanged) to verify your claims. I was sure you were off by that statement.

I wasn't very thorough, but I still counted about 9 or 10 small tunnels between the two exits. Most of them are on just one carriageway, but they are still tunnels, no matter how small. They require a lot of time to build. Also, there are tons and tons of cuts in the terrain to acomodate the full width of the motorway, since we are talking about a very narrow river valley here, with a major railroad crossing through it. There is a reason they've built the DN1 on the mountainside, rather than down there.

Also, you say there are "just" bridges and viaducts to build. Only about 15 to build, to be exact. One of them is 1.5 km long, BTW . Also it's worth mentioning that the motorway crosses the river 9 times (often crossing it a bit and back again, or riding dirrectly over it) and the railroad 3 times. Oh, and the Prahova river needs to be regularized for about 4km. The rest of the course is right next to the most important railwayline in the country in a valley that has no public roads. Did I mention that Comarnic-Sinaia is 13 km long? . And I didn't count the DN1 overpass right after the Sinaia interchange, otherwise you should just add 1 to everything I counted.

No challenge whatsoever
So you browsed the original FS from 2008 (which was changed a lot and you know it!), while I was discussing the material for the bidders (winnners included) from 2012 December. Nice!

I sent you the doc via PM. Let me know where you find there the word tunnel for Comarnic-Sinaia.
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Old December 23rd, 2013, 10:01 AM   #7155
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@LeClerk: to stop this silly debate I'm asking you one thing: considering what we know today, when do you think it will be opened for traffic A3 motorway between Comarnic and Sinaia?
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Old December 23rd, 2013, 10:22 AM   #7156
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If they start in spring next year, they can open in late 2015 or 2016 at latest. Provided that the consortium sets that as a goal: to complete Comarnic-Sinaia first, which is not clear ATM.
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Old December 23rd, 2013, 10:28 AM   #7157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Swiss construction progress is one of the slowest in the world, I don't think it is representative for all tunnel construction. I think it's better to compare to Austria, where a short tunnel requires about 2.5 - 3 years and 4-5 years for a longer one (2-6 km). Norway has about the same tunnel construction speed.
How long did it take to build the motorway tunnel near Sibiu?! Under 1 year?!

How long does it take to build the metro tunnels in Bucharest on M5 - 9 km?! 1 km / 2 months.
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Old December 23rd, 2013, 02:01 PM   #7158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
How long did it take to build the motorway tunnel near Sibiu?! Under 1 year?!

How long does it take to build the metro tunnels in Bucharest on M5 - 9 km?! 1 km / 2 months.
you are a geodesist, aren't you ?

you see I am not, but my logic tells me I cannot compare two different construction sites as long as geological conditions are different from each other.
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Old December 23rd, 2013, 03:24 PM   #7159
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Quote:
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How long did it take to build the motorway tunnel near Sibiu?! Under 1 year?!
That could hardly be called a modern tunnel. I don't think I've ever seen a motorway tunnel as crude as the one near Săcel. It is short and has no tunnel installations such as ventilation and probably does not have advanced safety systems either, such as a traffic control center, dedicated fire department, safety rooms, escape tubes, etc.

Totally uncomparable with actual mountain tunnels that are bored or blasted, and you know it.

To compare, the Northern Link Tunnel in Stockholm has recently been paved, signs were installed. And when will it open? A year from now. That's the time it takes to test advanced tunnel systems. The renovation of an existing tunnel in Austria generally takes 1 year, and all they do is work on technical installations. I think you underestimate that constructing a tunnel is more than just blasting through and paving over.
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Old December 23rd, 2013, 06:37 PM   #7160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
That could hardly be called a modern tunnel. I don't think I've ever seen a motorway tunnel as crude as the one near Săcel. It is short and has no tunnel installations such as ventilation and probably does not have advanced safety systems either, such as a traffic control center, dedicated fire department, safety rooms, escape tubes, etc.

Totally uncomparable with actual mountain tunnels that are bored or blasted, and you know it.

To compare, the Northern Link Tunnel in Stockholm has recently been paved, signs were installed. And when will it open? A year from now. That's the time it takes to test advanced tunnel systems. The renovation of an existing tunnel in Austria generally takes 1 year, and all they do is work on technical installations. I think you underestimate that constructing a tunnel is more than just blasting through and paving over.
That's why the speed limit through Sacel tunnel is 80 kmh instead of 100 kmh (an accepted standard in the EU).
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