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Old September 29th, 2014, 11:03 AM   #7661
and802
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bogdymol,

is it a first time, the Romanian road network map is published with expressways ?
I am not sure, but till now only motorways were considered. am I right or I missed something ?
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Old September 29th, 2014, 10:21 PM   #7662
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It is the first time a large network map is published with expressways, indeed. But it isn't the first time expressways are considered, there were multiple routes studied starting with 2009, but they were never built as such.

A10 Sebes-Turda was first imagined as an expressway and was subsequently redesigned as a full motorway when it was finally tendered with european funds. Pitesti-Craiova is tendered as either motorway or expressway, whichever the concessioner chooses to build. Satu Mare bypass is now tendered as part of the larger Baia Mare - Petea(Hu Border) expressroad, although not mentioned as such.
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Old September 30th, 2014, 02:16 PM   #7663
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Regarding expressways in Romania I will say that again - the motorway standard in Romania is so basic that I don't see any possibility to build any reasonable long distance expressways. I also don't see any particular savings through it as only way to make it a bit cheaper is to cut hard shoulders and make tighter curves. Regarding not so perfect state of cars cutting hard shoulders is plain stupid while tighter curves matched for 100 km/h passenger cars will meant that every corner will be truck laying at its side (I am not joking truck drivers are capable of overturning at motorway exits blocking the way). So I still don't see a reason why there is so much push for expressways and not building motorways in such basic standard which in Romania is at present.
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Old September 30th, 2014, 08:06 PM   #7664
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do you have a definition what expressway stands for ?

if you do it is easier to discuss whether you see a reason or you cannot see it at all ...
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Old September 30th, 2014, 09:23 PM   #7665
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Quote:
Originally Posted by and802 View Post
do you have a definition what expressway stands for ?
Well ATM there aren't any definitions what expressway in Romania will be. The CNADNR web page says only this about drumuri expres:
http://www.cnadnr.ro/proiecte.php?tip=80
Unofficial sources say about speed limit 100 km/h and that’s it or at least what I know (If someone knows than please share opinions).

Quote:
if you do it is easier to discuss whether you see a reason or you cannot see it at all ...
As I said expressway standard isn't clear but You may see standards for motorways:

Source: http://forum.construim-romania.ro/sh...ad.php?tid=122
Of course there is still much parameters missing but believe they aren't any high end, just basics, just look at A1/A6 intersection with non separated carriages in different direction. So the only short term benefit from expressway may be 0,5 m slashed from both carriages (1m in total), 2,5 m from hard shoulder (5 m in total), steeper grades and tighter curves. In mountainous country this can bring savings but those will be short term blocking any future cheap upgrades. And lets speak frankly 100 km/h as for transit route in country of Romania size is basically a laugh.
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Old September 30th, 2014, 09:24 PM   #7666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by and802 View Post
do you have a definition what expressway stands for ?

if you do it is easier to discuss whether you see a reason or you cannot see it at all ...



source Hotnews.ro

Transl

expressway
Platform
Merging Lanes
Shoulder(s)
Median


Motorway/Highway

as above plus
guiding lanes
emergency lane
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Old September 30th, 2014, 09:53 PM   #7667
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I understood the main difference is a lack of a service lane in favour of motorways. am I right ?

if so, it is a drawback indeed. and this would explain 100kph as a speed limit.

a pity, I really find driving much more comfortable being confident all broken cars are not on my way (lane)

really it is a pity.
anyway, all in all still better than present day situation.
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Old September 30th, 2014, 09:56 PM   #7668
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Paved shoulders are a key feature of a high-speed road. In most of the world they even use shoulders at two-lane roads and four-lane divided highways (not being freeways). Europe has a more minimalistic approach to save money.

Shoulders are not just for breakdowns, but also for emergency services access when there is a queue. A 'rettungsgasse' like in Austria hardly works on 7 m wide carriageways.
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Old September 30th, 2014, 10:18 PM   #7669
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I think those expressways will look something like this:

http://goo.gl/maps/Ui5J5

+ some kind of fence like here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6ERv...tailpage#t=364
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Old October 1st, 2014, 01:25 AM   #7670
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You can safely get 120kph running on a road with the following specs.

2.5m HS + 3.5 +3.5m Pavement + 1.5m Median with Concrete Barrier + 3.5 +3.5m Pavement + 2.5m HS

The current Romanian expressway standard is completely crap as it is only suitable for 100kph running as there is no emergency hard shoulder. No speeds upgrades are possible without a major ( and expensive) rebuild of the road.

Hungary has a dodgy expressway standard too, they put GRAVEL on their hard shoulders in some cases. Look at Polish expressways or Irish rural standard ( low(ish) traffic) Motorways to see how it is done, those roads are designed for safe 120kph speeds.

Romanian Motorways are a high standard for 130kh running and have wider 3.75m lanes, the hard shoulder is surprisingly small (only 2.5m) all the same, I would have thought 3m was the minimum at those speeds.
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Old October 2nd, 2014, 01:47 PM   #7671
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amst View Post
I think those expressways will look something like this: http://goo.gl/maps/Ui5J5
Really? I guess they will be grade-separated.

Anyway, even your (linked) DN1 Ploiesti - Comarnic with roundabout traffics and cross-town links is a good connection b/n two cities but it's not adequate for transit traffic.

I guess the Romanian road network has "extreme" peaks, hasn't it? DN7 Sibiu-Ramnicu Valcea(-Pitesti) was almost empty on Monday morning (AADT ~10,000-12,000 vehicles/day). Almost no trucks at all and less cars in both directions.
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Old October 2nd, 2014, 03:37 PM   #7672
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I was just pointing out that single image as how an expressway would look like, not the actual road.
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Old October 2nd, 2014, 06:26 PM   #7673
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
Regarding expressways in Romania I will say that again - the motorway standard in Romania is so basic that I don't see any possibility to build any reasonable long distance expressways.
I am curious, why do you think that? I personally thought we have one of the better standard in Europe regarding lane width and safety barriers (mounted on each side on the entire motorway length). Although admitedly, our signage standard is absolute crap. And some interchanges are absolute crap (indeed A1-A6 is horrific), although some are designed to high standards (A1-A4, future A1-A10 and A3-A10).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH
I guess the Romanian road network has "extreme" peaks, hasn't it? DN7 Sibiu-Ramnicu Valcea(-Pitesti) was almost empty on Monday morning (AADT ~10,000-12,000 vehicles/day). Almost no trucks at all and less cars in both directions.
Those values are probably influenced by the recent severe rainshowers we have had which caused the Pitesti-Rm. Valcea section to be closed for trucks because of landslides. This has gone on for almost a month now. Probably some truck drivers chose to avoid DN7 altogether and chose the southern route via Craiova, to avoid a huge detour.
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Old October 2nd, 2014, 07:11 PM   #7674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medicu' de garda View Post
I am curious, why do you think that? I personally thought we have one of the better standard in Europe regarding lane width and safety barriers (mounted on each side on the entire motorway length). Although admitedly, our signage standard is absolute crap. And some interchanges are absolute crap (indeed A1-A6 is horrific), although some are designed to high standards (A1-A4, future A1-A10 and A3-A10).
Well My judgment is from practical feel of the road compared to other countries. I definitely felt "squeezed" on the road (not by traffic but through dimensions). Personally I felt two times more comfortable on motorways in Hungary or Bulgaria than in Romania so I am pretty amused that those lanes are 3,75m. I would say that motorways in Romania are something similar to Slovakia, even expressway standard seems to be similar although in SK You can drive 130 km/h on such roads , which I also don't find pleasing or safe as well and wouldn’t recommend it in Romania. As You mentioned intersections are mostly crap, but I wouldn't agree about signage. Maybe it isn't especially pretty, maybe I've prepared well for trip but despite its minimalist form I haven't got lost in Romania (I have mostly used road numbers not destinations). So compared to neighbouring countries I would say that Hungary has best motorways and pretty well signed. As for Romania I wouldn’t recommend building something with lower standard than present motorway (with improved junctions and signs), at least for core network.
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Old October 2nd, 2014, 08:02 PM   #7675
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medicu' de garda View Post
Those values are probably influenced by the recent severe rainshowers we have had which caused the Pitesti-Rm. Valcea section to be closed for trucks because of landslides. This has gone on for almost a month now. Probably some truck drivers chose to avoid DN7 altogether and chose the southern route via Craiova, to avoid a huge detour.
Haven't known that. I can't remember any sign about a closure!?

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Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
Well My judgment is from practical feel of the road compared to other countries. I definitely felt "squeezed" on the road (not by traffic but through dimensions). Personally I felt two times more comfortable on motorways in Hungary or Bulgaria than in Romania so I am pretty amused that those lanes are 3,75m. I would say that motorways in Romania are something similar to Slovakia, even expressway standard seems to be similar although in SK You can drive 130 km/h on such roads , which I also don't find pleasing or safe as well and wouldn’t recommend it in Romania.
I recently drove all motorways except A2/A4. I never drove in Bulgaria and Slovakia but all Romanian motorways have a very good standard. They are not worse than Hungarian motorways and they are much better than (old) German motorways. I'm impressed by the very long acceleration lanes. You could safetly drive 200+ there (but I haven't done ).

Only lack of rest areas is bad. The situation is much better in Hungary.
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Old October 2nd, 2014, 09:01 PM   #7676
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My post number 666 but thanks to I'll remain

In searching what bothered Me on Romania motorways I've found cross section of motorway in Hungary. And as can be seen the barriers in middle in Romania are 0,7 m from lane edge while in Hungary 1 m. Barriers on side are 3 m in Romania while 3,5 m in Hungary. This may be small difference but this is noticeable when driving.

I've also noticed that "squeezed" feeling corresponds mostly to Sibiu bypass which is basically connection of long curves thus I assume that in Romania cross section applies without difference while most countries vary those parameters depending on curves where "visibility triangles" are constructed by widening the distances between lanes and barriers. This can be seen easily here in Sibiu and here in Hungary M3.

And last but not least - we shouldn't compare new motorways in Romania to old Reichsautobahn in Germany, only comparison of present standards will give answers.

Last edited by Richard_P; October 2nd, 2014 at 09:09 PM.
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Old October 2nd, 2014, 10:14 PM   #7677
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
I've also noticed that "squeezed" feeling corresponds mostly to Sibiu bypass which is basically connection of long curves thus I assume that in Romania cross section applies without difference while most countries vary those parameters depending on curves where "visibility triangles" are constructed by widening the distances between lanes and barriers. This can be seen easily here in Sibiu and here in Hungary M3.
Maybe Sibiu bypass is an exception. I've seen the "visiblity triangles" on other (newer) stretches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
And last but not least - we shouldn't compare new motorways in Romania to old Reichsautobahn in Germany, only comparison of present standards will give answers.
The entire A281 does not have hard shoulders at all. The guard railing is close to the lane. A new section opened on Monday .
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Old October 2nd, 2014, 11:33 PM   #7678
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Well My judgment is from practical feel of the road compared to other countries. I definitely felt "squeezed" on the road (not by traffic but through dimensions).
While you can go as low as 16m for 100kph expressway ( no hard shoulder) you need nearer 21m for 120kph and 26m for 130kph so any deviation below that will cause the 'squeeze' effect you noticed. Sometimes there is difficulty taking the full 26m or whatever.

Quote:
. As for Romania I wouldn’t recommend building something with lower standard than present motorway (with improved junctions and signs), at least for core network.
The core network should be proper motorway and there should be 2 full motorways from Cluj to Bucharest which is the core of the country ( for redundancy in case of landslides etc)

For smaller towns and lower population areas on non transit routes ( especially mountain sections) expressway would be fine.

22m should be a decent 120kph road once the politicians get around to building one.


Last edited by sponge_bob; October 3rd, 2014 at 12:09 AM. Reason: Bucharest innit. :)
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Old October 2nd, 2014, 11:43 PM   #7679
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2 full motorways from Cluj to Budapest which is the core of the country ( for redundancy in case of landslides etc)
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Old October 3rd, 2014, 12:08 AM   #7680
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Ah Bugger...Bucharest.
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