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Old January 14th, 2015, 08:04 AM   #7841
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A short report on the masterplan. Take the information with a bit of salt.


Quote:
Romania’s Government draws new highways on the map, needs EUR 30 bln to build them

Romania needs about EUR 30 billion to build motorways and express roads in the next 15 years, transport minister Ioan Rus said on Tuesday, January 13. He presented the Government’s priorities for the road infrastructure segment, for 2015-2016, as well as the updated road infrastructure investment plans for the 2014-2030 period.

According to the document Rus presented, Romania should build 725 kilometers of motorways, 184 kilometers of phased motorways, and 1,809 kilometers of express roads. The estimated costs amount to EUR 28.6 billion, VAT included.

Rus said that Romania will get EUR 6 billion from the European Union for road infrastructure and will be able to access loans from the European Investment Bank (EIB), from EBRD and from the World Bank. He also said that the special excise for diesel fuel, the road tax as well as public-private partnerships should generate another EUR 4 billion financing for these projects, according to Mediafax newswire.

Prime Minister Victor Ponta said that a political consensus for a minimum of 10 years must be reached in order for these infrastructure plans to be realised. He added that without a document signed by the President and by the leaders of all political parties in Romania to support the Transport Master Plan and offer long-term guarantees, there’s no use for transport experts to start working on these projects, as they will not get the needed financing.

Romania plans to open 250 kilometers of motorways in the next two years, minister Ioan Rus said, according to Mediafax. The openings for this year are estimated at about 50 kilometers, with the longest segments to be opened in Western Romania. Romania currently has almost 700 kilometers of finished motorways.
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Old January 14th, 2015, 08:15 AM   #7842
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BTW: expressways proposed under the same masterplan:

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Old January 14th, 2015, 09:01 AM   #7843
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An expressway proposed between Pitesti and Brashov?
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Old January 14th, 2015, 09:36 AM   #7844
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Yes. Why not ?! The traffic on this section is important, and so is the economic connection, in between 2 most industrialised cities in Romania. They are both very strong automotive centers, with no serious connections in between.

This is not new, but I am skeptical about it being built in the coming 7 years.
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Old January 14th, 2015, 12:04 PM   #7845
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aubergine72 View Post


That one goes through villages and has zebra crossings on it...

But still much better than what there was before this road was built around 10 years ago.
Yes, indeed. It is a pretty good road, considering other roads in Romania. And not that busy either.
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Old January 14th, 2015, 01:26 PM   #7846
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
I forgot to mention. The KM Autostrada number does not add up on the map.

While the KM Number top right is 725 there is a lot more than 725km actually marked in green on the map. I am not counting what is already there either, only what is proposed.

There must be a mistake...around 300km worth of a mistake. So that means 2 of those green stretches are to be coloured purple in the end.

But which two??????
The map shows:
- motorways - 1048 km / EUR 10,306 instead of 725km / 10,580
- expressways - 1898km / EUR 10,424 instead of 1809 km / 9,607

The phased motorway values are correct.

The totals amount to 3130km's and EUR 23,672.

Where the mistake is - I would not even hazard a guess.... But looking at the map, both the distances and the resulting per kilometre costs appear to be reasonable.
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Old January 15th, 2015, 02:35 AM   #7847
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When we can expect A1 finished ?
2020 maybe ?
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Old January 15th, 2015, 02:55 AM   #7848
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Earliest. Autoputevi.

And as the previous 20 odd posts on the latest 'plan' have shown it may or may not be an A Road....it could be an Expressway.
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Old January 15th, 2015, 02:15 PM   #7849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LG_ View Post
An expressway proposed between Pitesti and Brashov?
Just proposed. Actually not.
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Old January 15th, 2015, 08:26 PM   #7850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Earliest. Autoputevi.

And as the previous 20 odd posts on the latest 'plan' have shown it may or may not be an A Road....it could be an Expressway.
It's going to be a motorway for sure. This time I thing the goverment got the hint from the EU and the public opinion in general. They kept trying to delay the mountain section of the A1, with stupid ideas like making it an expressway or building it in two stages (at first an expressway, after that we'll see ). That's why those maps keep hinting at it being an expressway. They didn't even update them properly to show the new plan. The whole thing should be ready by 2020, 2022 at the latest (since some of the harder sections, with long tunnels would probably be delayed).

We can now be sure that the A1 is the new definitive priority since two days ago, when the contract for concessioning the A3 Comarnic-Brasov came to light: an estimated 8.5 bilion euros, over a 30 year period , Obviously, this whole thing will go bust, after one year of failed negotiations with the IMF and other parties.
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Old January 15th, 2015, 08:35 PM   #7851
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medicu' de garda View Post
We can now be sure that the A1 is the new definitive priority since two days ago, when the contract for concessioning the A3 Comarnic-Brasov came to light: an estimated 8.5 bilion euros, over a 30 year period
Do you really think A1 Sibiu-Pitesti costs will be substantially lower?
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Old January 15th, 2015, 09:30 PM   #7852
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"EU will pay, so we really don't care about that." - this seems to be the general aproach about that.
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Old January 15th, 2015, 09:46 PM   #7853
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The last fesability study mentions a cost of around 3 bilion euros for the entire stretch. Some people on the forum have done calculations and concluded that it should cost even less, especially if we tender tunnels, bridges and separately and split the project in numerous shorter stretches. Even the goverment, in the period when they tried everything to force the public opinion to abandon the A1 and embrace the A3, mentioned something like 4.5 bilion (which was straight out of the PM's ass, anyway, and that was the largest price - estimates varied wildly from one talkshow to another).

So, yeah. It will be SUBSTANTIALLY CHEAPER, even more so as we're only paying for 15% of it . For the A3 we would be paying the whole price + huge interest rates...


LE: I forgot to mention, we're tendering the redoing of the fesability study, which will reveal the true cost of the project, which will likely be lower. The EU requires a new study that will include a proper geological survey (as opposed to office-chair "surveys" which were done on other projects, like Orastie-Sibiu). The fact that this tender was cancelled two years ago by the current goverment, in the same period that the A3 became the project of the century, makes you think that they also knew that Pitesti-Sibiu was even cheaper and didn't want people to know about it and make the other project fail
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Last edited by medicu' de garda; January 15th, 2015 at 09:58 PM.
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Old January 16th, 2015, 12:51 AM   #7854
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medicu' de garda View Post
It's going to be a motorway for sure. This time I thing the goverment got the hint from the EU and the public opinion in general. They kept trying to delay the mountain section of the A1, with stupid ideas like making it an expressway or building it in two stages (at first an expressway, after that we'll see ). That's why those maps keep hinting at it being an expressway. They didn't even update them properly to show the new plan. The whole thing should be ready by 2020, 2022 at the latest (since some of the harder sections, with long tunnels would probably be delayed).

We can now be sure that the A1 is the new definitive priority since two days ago, when the contract for concessioning the A3 Comarnic-Brasov came to light: an estimated 8.5 bilion euros, over a 30 year period , Obviously, this whole thing will go bust, after one year of failed negotiations with the IMF and other parties.
8.5 B over a 30 year period means approx 300 m per year, which all of a sudden is not that excentric.

In any case, I am still looking to understand the mathematics behind this figure (design, construction, maintenance and financing costs included).
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Old January 16th, 2015, 12:54 AM   #7855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Do you really think A1 Sibiu-Pitesti costs will be substantially lower?
We are talking apple and pears here.

For Pitesti-Sibiu we talk only design and construction costs, whereas for Comarnic-Brasov 8.5 billion figure includes financing and maintenance costs, for 30 years ! besides design and construction.
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Old January 16th, 2015, 06:50 PM   #7856
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
We are talking apple and pears here.

For Pitesti-Sibiu we talk only design and construction costs, whereas for Comarnic-Brasov 8.5 billion figure includes financing and maintenance costs, for 30 years ! besides design and construction.
Of course! That's my question. Do you really think A1 will have lower costs?

btw, "cheap" is the wrong word......
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Old January 16th, 2015, 07:31 PM   #7857
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Quote:
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Of course! That's my question. Do you really think A1 will have lower costs?

btw, "cheap" is the wrong word......
IMO, it will be cheaper. How much cheaper is anyone's guess, but it certainly won't cost 3 bilion euros. That price was determined in the last FS, done in the boom years before the crisis, when materials and labour were more expensive, projects were built according to the crazy, inefficient CNADNR designs instead of design&build by the contractor and when the country didn't have much experience in motorways, proper standards and a serious competition from construction companies for winning a tender.

There's no way in hell that the A1 could cost that much or more TODAY, after redoing the FS, unless they decide to build 10+ km long tunnels for fun, or try to build the whole thing over the river...
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Old January 16th, 2015, 11:54 PM   #7858
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You, as many others, keeps on forgetting that area where A1 will be build between Pitesti and Sibiu it's prone to landslide. And CNADNR still don't have any serious experience. Just look at that:



SOURCE (picture taken from the last strech open last november)


The cost for the missing section of A1? Will see when the new FS will demand for a low atitudine tunnel north of Salatrucu. Maybe it will have 8 km in lenght, and the cost will raiseeee...
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Old January 17th, 2015, 10:51 AM   #7859
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I agree.

I don't want to compare apples to oranges but Germany has a much bigger experience in building motorways and roads in general. I read a lot of news with announcements about estimated costs and completion dates etcetera. It's common that the costs increase dramatically (+20%, +50%, +100%,...). Even on normal or easy terrain. I always wonder how stupid one (authority) can be but.... It's common...

If the road is built in unknown terrain, problems like landslides are most likely. Costs and construction time will increase..... I don't know if the mountain crossing via A3 or via A1 would be more expensive but I would not be suprised if A1 would cost 8.5 billion € too (including maintenance for 30 years). Maybe A3 would even cost 12 billion € in the end of the day?

It's also a matter of time. I think the second mountain crossing would be more expensive. The experience with the first crossing would help but general costs usually increase too (inflation).

We'll see......
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Old January 17th, 2015, 07:05 PM   #7860
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Yes, indeed. It is a pretty good road, considering other roads in Romania. And not that busy either.
I often use Otopeni airport and while an expressway or motorway would be great there, I'd appreciate much more the Bucharest centura, since crossing the city doubles the travel time. It's way overdue.
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