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Old April 2nd, 2015, 11:18 AM   #7961
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Quote:
Originally Posted by and802 View Post
I do not think the problem sits within EC.
I guess Romania does not have a clear picture of long term plan for motorways or Romania is not able to communicate the plan in the right way.


Look at this map proposed by the EU. Anyone finds anything weird? For example that 2/3 of Romania remains uncovered by motorways, including key cities ?! While the EU wants us to build 2 parallel motorways following basically the same traffic ?!

In other words, the EU want us to fund 2 parallel motorway on 1/3 of Romania, and leave totally uncovered the rest of 2/3. I don't think Romania should fund that. Let the EU fund it entirely, if it's in its interest.


Quote:
Originally Posted by alwn View Post
seems that A6 Lugoj- Calafat has to be included within the priorities which is not the case with other projects e.g. Pitesti- Craiova. What do you say Le Clerk?



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Old April 2nd, 2015, 02:34 PM   #7962
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It's still a good deal, Romania pays 15% of motorways covering 33% of its territory.

Don't forget Romania is an EU member not against EU, at least should not be, and all EU priorities were voted by all EU members. Also, Romania as EU member, pays its contribution to EU and if it don't want to take EU money its money will be used to fund other EU projects, like HSR in Spain.

If Romania has other priorities, it should negotiate at EU for them, to be included in EU priorities, too. But first, Romania should prove it's a reliable state and should implement the current EU priorities.

The idea, that Romania has other priorities then EU and funding motorways 100% with Romanian money, is a BIG STUPIDITY!!! It's just an excuse to start a couple of Bechtel like businesses, to pay billions of euros for nothing, to steal the money.
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Old April 2nd, 2015, 10:02 PM   #7963
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What you are saying is that only the EU may have priorities in Romania, and Romania may not have priorities, even though it does contribute to the EU budget, including part of the money it receives back from the EU !! Which is why it should be not only the EU to decide what to do with the EU money in Romania, but Romania as well.

Second, I do not agree that we should not be following our priorities, because the EU pays up to 85% of the cost (this is not entirely true, because there is an array of costs which are not covered by the EU). My question is why should we pay at least 15% of the cost for non-priorities, when we could allot that kind of money to priorities?! Would you pay 15 EUR for a product that you do not need ?! Or would you instead pay 100 EUR for a product you really need ?!

Third, FFS, Romania is a very poor country in terms of motorways, and we are building 2 (two) parallel networks, feeding on the same traffic, while leaving the biggest chunk of the country without a motorway !! Because the EU wants this. And we are paying part of that.

Mind you, I am not referring to Bechtel type of deals (that is one sole exception, and it remained at that !) - there are reasonably budget funded projects at the moment, and this is not bad !!! See Transylvania motorway currently.

I am all for EU funds, they need to be spent, but on things that we need. Greece spent a lot of their EU money, with EU agreement, on stuff they didn't need and ended up were they are now. Nobody spends a dime on stuff that is useless, or on last priority !!
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Old April 2nd, 2015, 10:26 PM   #7964
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
What you are saying is that only the EU may have priorities in Romania, and Romania may not have priorities, even though it does contribute to the EU budget, including part of the money it receives back from the EU !! Which is why it should be not only the EU to decide what to do with the EU money in Romania, but Romania as well.
We have a saying in the Netherlands: 'He who pays, gets to decide'.

In this case, the EU is paying 85% of the cost of Romanian motorway projects. So it makes sense they can make some demands as to what is built. The Romanian government should do some better lobbying in Brussels if they want more motorway projects. Poland is very succesful in building a large nationwide motorway network with EU funding.
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Old April 2nd, 2015, 10:32 PM   #7965
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
C'mon....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
What you are saying is that only the EU may have priorities in Romania, and Romania may not have priorities
Romania may have priorities. Of course, Romania may build motorways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
even though it does contribute to the EU budget, including part of the money it receives back from the EU !! Which is why it should be not only the EU to decide what to do with the EU money in Romania, but Romania as well.
Each EU country can provide a list for EU proving to be co-funded. There is a "EU masterplan" (TEN projects). EU only spends money on this routes. The same rules for all members.

It's the decision of Romania (well, of Romania's politicians) which motorway will be build. The one with x % EU funding or the one with 0 % EU funding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
Would you pay 15 EUR for a product that you do not need ?! Or would you instead pay 100 EUR for a product you really need ?!
Ok. Do it. Spend 100 €. Be sure, if Romania does not need the money, it will be used by other countries.... Or for other things instead of roads....
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Old April 2nd, 2015, 11:01 PM   #7966
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Which bit of "Trans European Network" or TEN seems to go over the heads of the politicians in Romania eh?????

Other countries will step up with plans to spend the money that will not be spent in Romania out to 2021 is what will happen.

I expect another map of 'priorities' will appear out of somewhere soon.
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 01:42 AM   #7967
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Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post

Second, I do not agree that we should not be following our priorities, because the EU pays up to 85% of the cost (this is not entirely true, because there is an array of costs which are not covered by the EU). My question is why should we pay at least 15% of the cost for non-priorities, when we could allot that kind of money to priorities?! Would you pay 15 EUR for a product that you do not need ?! Or would you instead pay 100 EUR for a product you really need ?!
You spend 15€ and you have 85 more for 85% of other plan, what is the problem here?
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 11:06 AM   #7968
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Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Which bit of "Trans European Network" or TEN seems to go over the heads of the politicians in Romania eh?????

Other countries will step up with plans to spend the money that will not be spent in Romania out to 2021 is what will happen.

I expect another map of 'priorities' will appear out of somewhere soon.
This is the TEN-T map in Romania (core and comprehensive).



Mind you, A6 is not the only core route there. My question remains. Why build A6 which is parallel to A1, and caters to the same traffic, and postpone other TEN-T core routes post-2020 ?! I am not saying that the EU money should not be used, but they should be spent on routes that are rational, and do not double existing projects. Thus, in this financial cycle Romania should be completing A1 (Sibiu-Pitesti, and A0), and then move to A7 (which has already started by signing of Bacau by-pass) or even East-West motorway. These are the priorities after the completion of A1. And they all can be done with EU money.

However, the EU now tells us: scrap all the other TEN-T routes and focus on A6.
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 12:17 PM   #7969
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However, the EU now tells us: scrap all the other TEN-T routes and focus on A6.
Thanks. I tried to read the RO article again. I guess "Timis Online" (TION) is a local/regional newspaper from Timisoara, isn't it?

If I got it right, TION reports, that EU commission rejected the RO transportation master plan and said A6 (Lugoj-Calafat) is more important for EU than A7 (Bucharest-Iasi, "to the north"). A6 is TEN-T but it has just expressway/express road status with lower priority in the RO master plan ("almost non-existent"). We'll see whether the ministry will consider the EU observation and will modify the master plan again.

I really hope I got it right (by using Google Translate)!

Considering that TION is a regional newspaper I think it's only a "simple" report by a local journalist. I know this kind of reports. The journalist is usually not an expert. I think most of us are even more familiar with this stuff. I think, we shouldn't share the conclusion of the article. We shouldn't take it literally.

I read so much crap like this in German articles every day............... I monitor this kind of reports for more than 5 years now. I've learned, that one shouldn't trust news articles. One shouldn't trust any local politicians' speech. One shouldn't trust any politicians' speech. I've even learned, that one shouldn't believe statements of road authority officials. Priorities. Priority modifications. Discussions. Complaints. Endless discussions. Blahblah... Don't believe any announcement about costs, planning completion date, construction start data, completion date,... Don't take any report or press release about this stuff literally.

I think I've identified a way, how to build a road: Shut up and make a proper planning. Once, the planning is legal, fight for funding. If funding is available, use it immediately!

Which RO project has building law and could be started immediately (call for bids)?

Maybe I shouldn't compare different countries, but within EU.... Regarding EU funding....
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Which new motorways are currently under construction?
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See 'New motorway projects' thread

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Old April 3rd, 2015, 01:42 PM   #7970
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Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
the EU now tells us: scrap all the other TEN-T routes and focus on A6.
I get lost in discussions. So the EU made now only finishing A1 + A6 priority until 2020? Or are there from EU perspective still other roads a priority?
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 02:57 PM   #7971
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I get lost in discussions. So the EU made now only finishing A1 + A6 priority until 2020? Or are there from EU perspective still other roads a priority?
LeClerk persists with his policy of not reading the rules. In his map above he shows all Ten -T roads in Romania.

EU Transport funding is ONLY available for the Ten - T Core routes, the A6 and A1. Romania did not have a clear plan to upgrade the A6 to a MINIMUM standard of Expressway. Arguably this is because Romania has a crap expressway design standard ....unlike Poland for example. Any proposal to spend EU Transport Funds on Core Routes must meet a minimum design standard which is Expressway 2x2

EU REGIONAL and COHESION FUNDS are available for other routes, particularly Cluj > Iasi > Bucharest. However EU Transport Funds are not available for these roads.

Romania has a plan to spend EU Regional and Structural funds amounting to quite a few billion every year. The key ones are Regional Cohesion and Interreg and some money can be spent on smaller roads within the Rural Development plan too.

http://www.fonduri-ue.ro/res/filepic...001_1_1_ro.pdf

Then there is the General Transport Master plan for all of Romania. This is the plan from 2014 that states that most 2+2 roads are to be built as expressways not as motorways.

http://govnet.ro/General/Economics/T...-for-2014-2030

The General Transport Master Plan is the ONLY BIG PLAN from now out to 2030 and changing ANY of it will be fraught with difficulty.

So for roads in N and E Romania the question is what the priorities are in the Regional Plans for regions like Nord-Est when read together with the General Transport master plan. That decides what will be EU funded and for the Nord Est region it will have to be Regional Cohesion and Interreg type funds..not Transport funding ( now called Connect Europe or CEF funds)

The single most intelligent thing Romania could do is come up with a proper expressway standard and something half decent was also published last year and kindly linked in here by a poster in the last 4 months.

In Poland their expressways are motorways ( but they are not called motorways) and they are designed for 120kph running as is appropriate for a large country. Romania is therefore invited to build a 120kph A6 to a minimum expresway standard and apply for 85% EU funding for it, alternatively they may apply to build a full Motorway like the A1 but I consider that unwise. I am not sure what the co funding rate is for Regional and Cohesion projects but I think they are broadly the same.

Anything short of full expressway will not be EU funded on the A6 so the question is really whether Romania intend to do it right or try to build a mickey mouse 100kph expressway instead.
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 03:04 PM   #7972
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Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
LeClerk persists with his policy of not reading the rules. In his map above he shows all Ten -T roads in Romania.

EU Transport funding is ONLY available for the Ten - T Core routes, the A6 and A1. Romania did not have a clear plan to upgrade the A6 to a MINIMUM standard of Expressway. Arguably this is because Romania has a crap expressway design standard ....unlike Poland for example. Any proposal to spend EU Transport Funds on Core Routes must meet a minimum design standard which is Expressway 2x2
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 03:59 PM   #7973
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In Poland their expressways are motorways ( but they are not called motorways) and they are designed for 120kph running as is appropriate for a large country.
Well done!
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 04:13 PM   #7974
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Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Thanks. I tried to read the RO article again. I guess "Timis Online" (TION) is a local/regional newspaper from Timisoara, isn't it?

If I got it right, TION reports, that EU commission rejected the RO transportation master plan and said A6 (Lugoj-Calafat) is more important for EU than A7 (Bucharest-Iasi, "to the north"). A6 is TEN-T but it has just expressway/express road status with lower priority in the RO master plan ("almost non-existent"). We'll see whether the ministry will consider the EU observation and will modify the master plan again.

I really hope I got it right (by using Google Translate)!

Considering that TION is a regional newspaper I think it's only a "simple" report by a local journalist. I know this kind of reports. The journalist is usually not an expert. I think most of us are even more familiar with this stuff. I think, we shouldn't share the conclusion of the article. We shouldn't take it literally.

I read so much crap like this in German articles every day............... I monitor this kind of reports for more than 5 years now. I've learned, that one shouldn't trust news articles. One shouldn't trust any local politicians' speech. One shouldn't trust any politicians' speech. I've even learned, that one shouldn't believe statements of road authority officials. Priorities. Priority modifications. Discussions. Complaints. Endless discussions. Blahblah... Don't believe any announcement about costs, planning completion date, construction start data, completion date,... Don't take any report or press release about this stuff literally.
Finally, someone gets it!!! Congradulations people, you just wasted 1 page and a lot of valuable minutes debating on some second rate article in the romanian media and presented by LeClerk as some game-changing truth, which he then tries to blame the EU for and bash around .
The article is a piece of crap. It is written in layman's language, it's horribly subjective, it's far from proffessional as it presents facts from a regional perspective ("the EU supports the motorways on our territory, not those useless motorways in Moldova the stupid Bucharest goverment tries to build") and it lacks proof for what it states. The article says that the EU rejected the current MasterPlan sent to them (which is TRUE), then invents some bogus claim that we have to stick to the former corridors or the subsequent priority projects (which is FALSE, the author doesn't present any document stating this, as it doesn't exist).

An objective article, that presents the actual EU response is HERE, written by one of our fellow forrumers. Some of the main points motivating the rejection of the MasterPlan are: prioritisation of projects according to the TEN-T Core network (of which the A8 is part of!) and prioritising missing links, which means that A1 Pitesti-Sibiu and at least half of Bucharest's motorway bypass should be on top of the list.

Currently, the top priority project on the Masterplan list is A7 Bacau-Pascani, which is a bit too much. Still, the EU doesn't deny the importance of the A8, it just has to be put lower on the list. Argueably, Iasi-Pascani and Pascani-Bacau are the most important section by far in the region, and they will probably be built sometime before 2020. But meanwhile, Pitesti-Sibiu has to be started. Also, the A6 is on mentioned on the Masterplan, but it's an express road. I agree it's a bit low on the list, but the A7 is also part of TEN-T Core routes and carries more traffic...

BTW, you can see the current project in the masterplan in this LINK. Also, a map of said projects is available in the article I quoted above.



Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob
EU Transport funding is ONLY available for the Ten - T Core routes, the A6 and A1. Romania did not have a clear plan to upgrade the A6 to a MINIMUM standard of Expressway. Arguably this is because Romania has a crap expressway design standard ....unlike Poland for example. Any proposal to spend EU Transport Funds on Core Routes must meet a minimum design standard which is Expressway 2x2
I'm afraid you are stuck somewhere in the past. The link to the Masterplan map you posted is obsolete, the current one is the one in in the article linked above. Also, you speak of TEN-T Core routes, but are unaware that for some time now, they include A8 Targu-Mures-Iasi-Ungheni and A7 Bucharest-Bacau-Siret , The map LeClerk posted is the correct one.

Also, how could you possibly know how bad the Romanian expressway standard is if we've never actually build one to this day? The stardard is the one Cricric posted, it seems quite decent, especially since it requires easy upgrading to a motorway in the future, so curve radiuses and declivities still have to follow the motorway standard. We still have to actually see one build to judge it's usefulness, though...
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 04:17 PM   #7975
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OMG that is really crap standard! Basically no space in median, 3,5 m lanes, basically no hard shoulder and hard barriers just 0,75 m from lane. So it will be something like this. This is definitelly regular road and not expressway standard so 100 km/h speed limit for those roads is correct but I think that it is a waste of money to build long distance roads based on such standard. As I said earlier motorway standards in Romania are so basic that nothing below them (eventually 3,5m instead of 3,75m lanes) should be imposed.
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 04:59 PM   #7976
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I don't understand what you're talking about.
"no space in median"=???
" 3,5 m lanes"- it's quite standard for an expressway
"and hard barriers just 0,75 m from lane."- 1,5 m from the lane
Quote:
This is definitelly regular road and not expressway standard
Dude, wake up.
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 05:06 PM   #7977
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Originally Posted by medicu' de garda View Post
Also, you speak of TEN-T Core routes, but are unaware that for some time now, they include A8 Targu-Mures-Iasi-Ungheni and A7 Bucharest-Bacau-Siret , The map LeClerk posted is the correct one.
Eh?? > http://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes...danube_map.pdf
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 06:08 PM   #7978
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What you posted is the TEN-T CORE NETWORK CORRIDOR RHINE - DANUBE, part of the TEN-T Core Network. I'm talking about the ENTIRE Core, THIS ONE ,for which we are eligible for EU Cohesion funding. AFAIK, we can build anyone of these roads in the 2014-2020 period, as long as we complete the missing links on the northern branch of the former corridor, and we can justify it's priority in the Masterplan. I haven't found any statement proving otherwise. If you have one, by all means, post it!
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 06:39 PM   #7979
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"no space in median"=???
When car hits middle barrier it is thrown into carriage in opposite direction creating pretty much mess, for that You need space in centre of the road.

Quote:
" 3,5 m lanes"- it's quite standard for an expressway
Yes it can be also used on motorways as in German standard but the problem is with cross section more on that below.

Quote:
"and hard barriers just 0,75 m from lane."- 1,5 m from the lane
In the centre You have 0,75 m from line edge to concrete barrier, on side You have 0,75 m of pavement before drainage starts. So just to sum up Romania tries to squeeze expressway into 18,5 m wide corridor while Germany require minimum 28 m, Czech Republic and Slowakia for expressway require 25,5 m although have some older which were just 22,5 m wide and there are many other examples showing that Expressways in Romania will be rather substandard.

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Dude, wake up.
I am fully awaken, such standards have regular dual carriageway roads in many countries for example Czech Republic (as earlier link for their standards was provided)
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 07:37 PM   #7980
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What you posted is the TEN-T CORE NETWORK CORRIDOR RHINE - DANUBE, part of the TEN-T Core Network. I'm talking about the ENTIRE Core, THIS ONE ,for which we are eligible for EU Cohesion funding.
Medicu. Lets get this straight shall we.

1. There are 10 EU Corridors incl Rhine Danube. These are the CORE
2. The map you posted shows the COMPREHENSIVE NETWORK which includes the Core Network but which is larger.
3. I already said you could get Cohesion Funding for the Comprehensive network but you cannot get funds from EU Transport Funding (The CEF ) for the Comprehensive network.

Transport funding is only for Core Routes from 2014 onwards.

Stop confusing Ten-T Core and Ten - T Comprehensive please!!!!!!!
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