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Old April 3rd, 2015, 08:32 PM   #7981
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
...I think I've identified a way, how to build a road: Shut up and make a proper planning. Once, the planning is legal, fight for funding. If funding is available, use it immediately!
....[/size]
100% correct

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Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
...
The single most intelligent thing Romania could do is come up with a proper expressway standard ...

100% correct
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 08:38 PM   #7982
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Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
When car hits middle barrier it is thrown into carriage in opposite direction creating pretty much mess, for that You need space in centre of the road.


Yes it can be also used on motorways as in German standard but the problem is with cross section more on that below.


In the centre You have 0,75 m from line edge to concrete barrier, on side You have 0,75 m of pavement before drainage starts. So just to sum up Romania tries to squeeze expressway into 18,5 m wide corridor while Germany require minimum 28 m, Czech Republic and Slowakia for expressway require 25,5 m although have some older which were just 22,5 m wide and there are many other examples showing that Expressways in Romania will be rather substandard.


I am fully awaken, such standards have regular dual carriageway roads in many countries for example Czech Republic (as earlier link for their standards was provided)
you are right. the schema of this "expressway" has nothing to do with express moving between cities.
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 09:02 PM   #7983
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Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
Germany require minimum 28 m
Well, German minimum for 2x2 is SQ20, 20m.
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 09:24 PM   #7984
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Originally Posted by medicu' de garda View Post
An objective article, that presents the actual EU response is HERE, written by one of our fellow forrumers. Some of the main points motivating the rejection of the MasterPlan are: prioritisation of projects according to the TEN-T Core network (of which the A8 is part of!) and prioritising missing links, which means that A1 Pitesti-Sibiu and at least half of Bucharest's motorway bypass should be on top of the list.
If I got it right, RO/EU talk about the Masterplan and an Implementation Strategy. What's the difference, the Masterplan contains all projects (just like a "simple" map) and the Implementation Strategy is a priorisation of the projects contained in the Masterplan?

I think it's correct that RO/EU negotiate about the implementation strategy because RO requests EU funding but why the hell is EU asked to comment the (internal) masterplan of Romania?

It's reported that "The final version of the General Transport Master Plan, which will include the latest corrections requested by the European Commission, will be presented in Brussels until 9 April 2015". Why should Romania modify its masterplan?

Sorry, I'm a little bit confused. Maybe caused by an inaccurate Google translation?
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 09:32 PM   #7985
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Ireland has a 100kph 2+2 in a 19m cross section as do Sweden.

Ireland can build a Motorway ( or Expressway) for 120kph running with a 25.5m cross section and with 3.5m lanes. It has a 2.5m hard shoulder each side.

I suggest Romania looks at that second standard for expressway road with traffic under 30k AADT. It is very safe at 120kph. It should not be used on roads where traffic is expected to reach 30k AADT within the next 20 years though.

As such road has a 120kph curve geometry from the start it is easy to upgrade it by adding lanes in future if that is required.

The difference in minimum stopping distance is substantial between 100kph and 120kph and the alignment and curves should reflect this. It takes 40% longer to brake to a halt.
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 10:08 PM   #7986
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a
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
If I got it right, RO/EU talk about the Masterplan and an Implementation Strategy. What's the difference, the Masterplan contains all projects (just like a "simple" map) and the Implementation Strategy is a priorisation of the projects contained in the Masterplan?

I think it's correct that RO/EU negotiate about the implementation strategy because RO requests EU funding but why the hell is EU asked to comment the (internal) masterplan of Romania?

It's reported that "The final version of the General Transport Master Plan, which will include the latest corrections requested by the European Commission, will be presented in Brussels until 9 April 2015". Why should Romania modify its masterplan?

Sorry, I'm a little bit confused. Maybe caused by an inaccurate Google translation?
That's about right. We already have a history of (necessary) EU interventions in the elaboration of our Masterplan. Because our politicians couldn't care less about anything else that woudn't channel traffic through the recently concessioned A3 Comarnic-Brasov motorway. (for their personal $$$, obviously ). There was no motorway ring around Bucharest and Pitesti-Sibiu was supposed to be an expresswaym which would supposedly be upgraded later (although any peasant would know that you can't widen a mountain road with tons of tunnels and bridges withouth completely rebuilding it). After a huge public reaction and EU declarationsm things have been mosty corrected.

Currently, the problems are unrealistic prioritisation of projects (A1 should be the utmost priority) and unclear funding perspectives. So, our goverment and AECOM, the company that made the Masterplan, have to "resimulate" the projects and obtain a different conclusion (this has happened tons of times already in just a few months, everytime the public would protest agains their idiotic transport policy). Let's hope this time they actually get it right, so we can get on with building stuff...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge bob
Medicu. Lets get this straight shall we.

1. There are 10 EU Corridors incl Rhine Danube. These are the CORE
2. The map you posted shows the COMPREHENSIVE NETWORK which includes the Core Network but which is larger.
3. I already said you could get Cohesion Funding for the Comprehensive network but you cannot get funds from EU Transport Funding (The CEF ) for the Comprehensive network.
Dude, you really need to learn how to read a map. Especially these TEN maps, which have always hag the same legend, but somehow you failed to realise it all these years . So I'll just explain. THICK lines represent TEN-T CORE routes. It doesn't matter if they're continuous, interrupted or both. THIN LINES represent COMPPREHENSIVE routes. Same rules apply here. The THICK lines in Romania are: the entire A1, A2, A6, A7, A8, A10 Sebes-Turda, part of A3 (Cluj-Targu Mures) and the (idiotic) Bucharest-Alexandria-Craiova (which is also A6, but really useless compered to the A12 Craiova-Pitesti). Now that we have that out of the way, can we please have an actual discussion?

PS: it's Medicul de garda. Meaning Doctor on call. If you're shortening my name, please do it in english
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 11:00 PM   #7987
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Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
LeClerk persists with his policy of not reading the rules. In his map above he shows all Ten -T roads in Romania.

EU Transport funding is ONLY available for the Ten - T Core routes, the A6 and A1. Romania did not have a clear plan to upgrade the A6 to a MINIMUM standard of Expressway. Arguably this is because Romania has a crap expressway design standard ....unlike Poland for example. Any proposal to spend EU Transport Funds on Core Routes must meet a minimum design standard which is Expressway 2x2
You are wrong, and medicu de garda just explained why. A6 and A1 are not the only core TEN-T routes in Romania. Look again at the map.
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 11:50 PM   #7988
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Originally Posted by medicu' de garda View Post
Finally, someone gets it!!! Congradulations people, you just wasted 1 page and a lot of valuable minutes debating on some second rate article in the romanian media and presented by LeClerk as some game-changing truth, which he then tries to blame the EU for and bash around .
I didn't bring this article up here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alwn View Post
seems that A6 Lugoj- Calafat has to be included within the priorities which is not the case with other projects e.g. Pitesti- Craiova. What do you say Le Clerk?

http://www.tion.ro/comisia-europeana...-banat/1518691
However, it has been circulated on the Romanian forum as well, and it was not dismissed that easy. There are people who give credibility to this approach that A6 is currently supported by the EU against other TEN-T core projects.


Quote:
The article is a piece of crap. It is written in layman's language, it's horribly subjective, it's far from proffessional as it presents facts from a regional perspective ("the EU supports the motorways on our territory, not those useless motorways in Moldova the stupid Bucharest goverment tries to build") and it lacks proof for what it states. The article says that the EU rejected the current MasterPlan sent to them (which is TRUE), then invents some bogus claim that we have to stick to the former corridors or the subsequent priority projects (which is FALSE, the author doesn't present any document stating this, as it doesn't exist).
I agree with all above. The article sounds pretty poor to me as well, yet since it was brought up ...

Quote:
An objective article, that presents the actual EU response is HERE, written by one of our fellow forrumers. Some of the main points motivating the rejection of the MasterPlan are: prioritisation of projects according to the TEN-T Core network (of which the A8 is part of!) and prioritising missing links, which means that A1 Pitesti-Sibiu and at least half of Bucharest's motorway bypass should be on top of the list.
Agreed ! That's why I also mentioned those as main priorities next !

Quote:
Currently, the top priority project on the Masterplan list is A7 Bacau-Pascani, which is a bit too much. Still, the EU doesn't deny the importance of the A8, it just has to be put lower on the list. Argueably, Iasi-Pascani and Pascani-Bacau are the most important section by far in the region, and they will probably be built sometime before 2020. But meanwhile, Pitesti-Sibiu has to be started. Also, the A6 is on mentioned on the Masterplan, but it's an express road. I agree it's a bit low on the list, but the A7 is also part of TEN-T Core routes and carries more traffic...
The 2 top priorities on the masterplan are both core, and arguably most important routes from traffic standpoint: Bacau-Pascani and Sibiu-Pitesti. These will take up most if not all EU financing up to 2020, so I fail to see why the EU should not be content ....
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Old April 4th, 2015, 12:43 AM   #7989
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Well, German minimum for 2x2 is SQ20, 20m.
Well German minimum may be 20 m but this is still 1,5 m brighter than in Romania and that applies to regular roads. As I've written standard for "Autobahnähnliche" which can be translated into Motorway Similar or expressway is 28 m with 3,5 m lanes and AADT up to 30 thousand cars. There is lower limit for "Stadtautobahn" in translation City Motorway but also this is set at 25 m with 2x9,75 m road surface which is still much greater than 18,5 m proposed in Romania with 2x8,5 m road surface.
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Old April 4th, 2015, 01:07 AM   #7990
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Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
As I've written standard for "Autobahnähnliche" which can be translated into Motorway Similar or expressway is 28 m with 3,5 m lanes and AADT up to 30 thousand cars. .
Autobahnlichte or 'country motorway' standards for 120kph speed limits are fine up to around 30k AADT where a wide motorway with a wide centre area and 3.6m to 3.75m lanes will absorb 50k AADT before it feels equally as crowded. Germany has a 28m wide overall land take, Poland I think is 27m and Ireland is 26.5m.

But the most important thing is that you are able to see a safe distance ahead for the design speed. Refitting a 100kph road for 120 or 130kph later is very costly, widening a 120kph road ( if required) is not as costly as the original line remains intact.
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Old April 4th, 2015, 10:35 AM   #7991
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medicu' de garda View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by medicu' de garda View Post
An objective article, that presents the actual EU response is HERE, written by one of our fellow forrumers.
If I got it right, RO/EU talk about the Masterplan and an Implementation Strategy. What's the difference, the Masterplan contains all projects (just like a "simple" map) and the Implementation Strategy is a priorisation of the projects contained in the Masterplan?
That's about right. We already have a history of (necessary) EU interventions in the elaboration of our Masterplan.
Sorry, again. What's the difference b/n Masterplan and Implementation Strategy (Master Planului General de Transport si a Strategiei de Implementare)? Why do RO/EU negotiate BOTH?
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Old April 4th, 2015, 10:55 AM   #7992
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pasadia View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bzyq_74 View Post
There were opinions that opened earlier part of the A1 (Lugoj-Topolovatu Mare)?
From what I read it apparently gave up and they open up a whole - Timisoara East - Lugoj. Is this true?
Yes, it's true. We are expecting a full opening between Timisoara East and Lugoj later this year. Maybe togheter with that border check and the missing part between Pecica and Arad (10 km)
Romanian Motorways Quarterly Review - Q1 2015 27 March 2015. (c) 130km.ro.
Deva - Lugoj: There was some news on current works (which seem to be advancing) and on various challenges encountered along the way. 17km of segment 1 of this section are currently open for traffic; estimated opening dates for segments currently under construction are April 2015 (the remainder of segment 1 and 17km of segment 2) and May 2016 (the remainder of segment 2 and segments 3-4).
Partial opening in April 2015? Is that true, which section (from..to)?
Lugoj - Timisoara: Works in progress on segment 2 (segment 1 already opened to traffic). Estimated opening dates on segment 2 are April 2015 (6km) and end of 2015 (the remainder).
Partial opening in April 2015? Is that true, which section (from..to)?
Bucharest - Ploiesti: 55.5km of this section are open to traffic. The remaining 6.5km are more challenging: the estimated opening date for 3.2km is 2016, while the date for the remaining 3.3km is unknown (contract for this length was canceled).
A3: Bucharest-Gherghitei Street – Bucharest Ring Road 6.5km (April 2012 to >= 2015) [contract canceled] – ? – map

Which part should be opened in 2016?
Ring Road - Popasului Street is about 4.5km
Popasului Street - Gherghitei Street is about 2km
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Old April 4th, 2015, 08:13 PM   #7993
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AFAIK (I'm not 100% sure of this), the Masterplan refers to the actual projects that are necesary and have to be built until 2030, while the implementation strategy is the part of said Masterplan that refers to the actual prioritisation of the projects, estimated dated of implementation, estimated budgets and financing sources. After intense public reaction and some EU statements, the projects themselves are now final, but there are still debates about the calendar and financing sources (which are unclear and the whole plan seems a tad too optimistic, UE funds being too few to cover everything...)

As for the news about partial openings on the A1 Timisoara-Lugoj, there might be a finalisation of the segment between Topolovatu and Sanovita, part of TImisoara-Lugoj lot 2, along with the remaining unused 10 km of Lugoj-Deva lot1 (Sanovita-Balint). But seeing the recents aerial filmings of these lots, there's no way in hell this will happen in April. Still, there might be a partial opening sometime in the summer which would be grealty useful for traffic. But I don't think Tirrena Scavi is really up for this plan, they don't really seem to be in a hurry... As for a partial opening this year of the easy stretch of lot 2, between Dumbrava and Margina, this seems to be extremely optimistic. In will probably open next year, while the mountain section could be done sometime in 2017, if the road company manages to tender the goddamn tunnels that had to be redesigned for this stretch

As for the A3 Bucharest stretch, the situation is really unclear (and ridiculous). The latest news is that the contract was cancelled and the road company receives the ~3km finished stretch between the ringroad and Popasului street, which is still unsusable, as it's half a km away from the road, and connecting exit roads haven't been built yet. The rest is supposed to be retendered and finished in a year after signing. We shall see what happens. This stretch is literally cursed, anyway ...
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Old April 5th, 2015, 12:31 AM   #7994
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Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Sorry, again. What's the difference b/n Masterplan and Implementation Strategy (Master Planului General de Transport si a Strategiei de Implementare)? Why do RO/EU negotiate BOTH?
There are two other plans as well,the Core Corridor plans. These were negotiated by RO/EU too. The implementation plan is only out to 2020 or so. It seems that the A1 won't be complete till 2022.

HTH
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Old April 5th, 2015, 06:51 PM   #7995
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What does that have to do with anything? The corridors are an EU document, we are talking here about the Romanian Masterplan, the document that decides everything we build, on EU money or not, up to 2030. And that includes the corridors, yes.

How did you conclude that the A1 won't be ready until 2022?
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Old April 5th, 2015, 08:44 PM   #7996
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Originally Posted by medicu' de garda View Post
How did you conclude that the A1 won't be ready until 2022?
I also think that 2022 is ambitious but could be manageable (in best case).

Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
5 months for the sections at both ends (the easier sections - Sibiu-Boița and Pitești-Curtea de Argeș)

12 months for the other 3 middle sections, through the mountains (Boița-Curtea de Argeș)

This 2 should start at the same time, so both of them should be done in 12 months

+ extra 5 months to obtain all the environmental permits
The FS should be completed by late 2016. Tender process in 2017. 4-5 years design & build period (2018-2021/22). If there are no big environmental issues, if FS will not be messed up again, if funding is really available and if no "big" problems occur while construction. I'm not sure if the terrain is qualified for a smooth progress.
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Old April 5th, 2015, 09:48 PM   #7997
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one thing I am sure of

Romania would be one of the most attractive construction site among EU countries for bidders in 5 years from now.
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Old April 5th, 2015, 10:25 PM   #7998
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Originally Posted by medicu' de garda View Post
What does that have to do with anything? The corridors are an EU document, we are talking here about the Romanian Masterplan, the document that decides everything we build, on EU money or not, up to 2030. And that includes the corridors, yes.

How did you conclude that the A1 won't be ready until 2022?
Well the Core Corridors also have a Masterplan _each_ , for delivery by 2030 across a number of countries and Romania sits astride 2 core corridors and has a seat on the steering group for each of the two core corridors.

The 2022 date is what Romania has promised in the Rhine- Danube corridor masterplan.

Trans European Core Corridors are a tad more than a line on a map nowadays.
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Old April 6th, 2015, 07:15 AM   #7999
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OK. Let's get back to serious stuff.


According to a local news report (CNADNR website does not confirm yet), the much awaited Suplacu-Bors section of A3 (52 km) was awarded to Spanish-Romanian consortium Corsan-Corviam Construccion SA & Consinit SRL & Road Consulting & Design Solution SRL & Via Design SRL for EUR 157 m, which means EUR 2.5 / km, an excellent price for a hilly terrain. True, 50% of the works have been completed previously by Bechtel.


Works should start in May.

Design+build = 24 months
Warranty = 30 months
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Old April 6th, 2015, 07:22 AM   #8000
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Works on the future border checkpoint on A1 between Romania and Hungary, on the Romanian side:






http://www.puterea.ro/economie/autos...trada-111423.h


Apparently, there will be 150 parking spots for trucks.
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