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Old April 6th, 2015, 10:11 AM   #8001
MichiH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
OK. Let's get back to serious stuff.
According to a local news report (CNADNR website does not confirm yet),


Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
the much awaited Suplacu-Bors section of A3 (52 km) was awarded to Spanish-Romanian consortium Corsan-Corviam Construccion SA & Consinit SRL & Road Consulting & Design Solution SRL & Via Design SRL for EUR 157 m, which means EUR 2.5 / km, an excellent price for a hilly terrain. True, 50% of the works have been completed previously by Bechtel.

Works should start in May.

Design+build = 24 months
Warranty = 30 months
The article also says: "the companies that lost the tender may appeal the decision CNADNR, it is likely that the completion of Highway Section 3 C does not happen at the expected time schedule, i.e. in May 2017." (Google translated)
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Old April 6th, 2015, 10:16 AM   #8002
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It's been posted on CNADNR website as well now.

PS: we'll see whether there will be appeals.
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Old April 6th, 2015, 11:22 AM   #8003
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It's been posted on CNADNR website as well now.
What's the length of A3 Suplacu de Barcau - Bors section?

52.250km, local news article reports.
60.250km, CNADNR press release reports.
64.500km, CNADNR project page says.
74.500km, EU document says (I guess it includes a connector to Zalau but why it's not mentioned in the press release, additional contract?).

I guess 64.5km is right b/c current contract begins at km4.2. Is there another contract for the border section? Why is it not included in the current contract?

And why the hell is that damn project not on top of the EU list? It's just number 7 (304 million €)!? Does Romania want 85% co-funding for A3 too?
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Old April 6th, 2015, 02:56 PM   #8004
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Actually is 60.09 km. It starts form here (intersection with comunal road 93/95, north of Matca) , at kilometer 4+200 of sector 3C (which starts at crossroad with DJ109P, south of Ip). I don't know why they choose this solution, but it says so here (in roumanian, page 7 of this document):

Quote:
Sectorul 3C initial al autostrazii Brasov - Cluj - Bors care are o lungime totala de 64.5 Km, incepe in judeţul Salaj (6,4 km) si traverseaza in totalitate judeţul Bihor. Traseul incepe in zona gării IP si a intersecţiei autostrazii cu drumul judetean DJ 109P. Traseul care face obiectul proiectului tehnic modificat in anul 2011 incepe in zona localitatii Marca (intersectia cu drumul communal DC 95), respectiv km 4+200 pe traseul autostrazii – sectiunea 3C. Astfel lungimea pentru care s-a elaborat proiectul tehnic modificat este de 60,09km
More details (only in roumanian) here.

Quote:
And why the hell is that damn project not on top of the EU list? It's just number 7 (304 million €)!? Does Romania want 85% co-funding for A3 too?
Well NO, Roumania doesn't want EU financing for this part of A3. At least not yet. It was proposed as one of the projects for Junckers plans for infrastructure (Bors - Cluj - Targu Mures - Iasi), but for this section it was always said that it will be finished only with state budget funding. Also state budget should found the sector between Mihaiesti and Nadaselu.
But for the missing part, between Surplacu and Mihaiesti, which will include a tunnel through Meses mountain south of Zalau, probably there will try to get EU financing.

About priorities I really don't know what to say. As you can see there are project started and on bidding stages which are not highly on priority list, and there are other projects which are high on priority list but which are not on anyone table. It seems like no one knows what the other does (CNADNR, our company road, MT, Minister of Transportation, and AECOM, the ones that wrote the Masterplan).

Last edited by pasadia; April 6th, 2015 at 03:56 PM.
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Old April 6th, 2015, 04:07 PM   #8005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pasadia View Post
Actually is 60.09 km.
Thanks .

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Originally Posted by pasadia View Post
About priorities I really don't know what to say. As you can see there are project started and on bidding stages which are not highly on priority list, and there are other projects which are high on priority list but which are not on anyone table. It seems like no one knows what the other does (CNADNR, our company road, MT, Minister of Transportation, and AECOM, the ones that wrote the Masterplan).
I think the whole EU funding plans are crap. I really don't get how countries like Poland and Spain handle this. Well, they maybe just build.........

I know a country which got financing of the 2015 budget for a TEN T core project. But they will not get building permits in the foreseeable future. They usually claim it's because of damn EU laws... Well, they built a lot other roads and just asked EU for moving the money to other projects (which were already completed). EU agreed.
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Old April 6th, 2015, 04:23 PM   #8006
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I really don't blame EU as I know that roumanians and Roumanian authorities don't have an agreement on what to build first and what to build later. And on top of that there are the delays caused by a lot of different reasons: bad FS, lack of qualified personnel on CNANDR, looby for PPP on certain project which put some much needed projects on hold.
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Old April 6th, 2015, 04:41 PM   #8007
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I just think that the budget concept is crap. It's okay to ask for more details how the plans should be implemented and why priorities are changed etcetera.
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Old April 6th, 2015, 05:32 PM   #8008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
What's the length of A3 Suplacu de Barcau - Bors section?

52.250km, local news article reports.
60.250km, CNADNR press release reports.
64.500km, CNADNR project page says.
74.500km, EU document says (I guess it includes a connector to Zalau but why it's not mentioned in the press release, additional contract?).

I guess 64.5km is right b/c current contract begins at km4.2. Is there another contract for the border section? Why is it not included in the current contract?
The correct value is ~60 km, like Pasadia said. Is includes the stretch to the border, what it doesn't include is the first 4 km between Matca and Ip. For some unknow reason, CNADNR decided to built the intersection shown below at the end of the motorway, than build something more decent a bit further. Perhaps they didn't want all the heavy traffic to make a right turn in the middle of the village . All I know is that all hell is gonna break loose if a train ever passes through there...



As for the extra 10km that appear on the Masterplan, I'm pretty sure they represent a fast link road to Oradea, as the actual motorway passes far from it. Just like they are trying to do now for Timisoara and Cluj-Napoca.

Quote:
And why the hell is that damn project not on top of the EU list? It's just number 7 (304 million €)!? Does Romania want 85% co-funding for A3 too?
I'm afraid there will be no co-funding here. Bors-Cluj is not on the TEN-T Core network, so most of the funding has to come from the goverment. Since we are likely to use all the EU funds in the next period anyway, I don't think they can even be bothered to ask for the 30% or so that could be used for this stretch...
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Old April 6th, 2015, 06:22 PM   #8009
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Originally Posted by medicu' de garda View Post
As for the extra 10km that appear on the Masterplan, I'm pretty sure they represent a fast link road to Oradea, as the actual motorway passes far from it. Just like they are trying to do now for Timisoara and Cluj-Napoca.
Hmm, that's what the document says:

Suplacu de Barcău - Borș (+ Oradea)*(include V.O Oradea, Zalău)
*se prioritizează fiecare investiție în funcție de EIRR-ul individual


Yes, "+ Oradea" could be a connector. Well, I thought "(include V.O Oradea, Zalău)" should be a connector to(wards) Zalau!?
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Old April 6th, 2015, 07:26 PM   #8010
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V.O. (which stands for "Varianta Ocolitoare", aka by-pass) Zalau will be done building segment Nadaselu - Surplacu and I don't think there will be need for any other conection road.

That document is not an EU document, but a Roumanian Minister of Transportation document presented to EU, and we are use to crappy document like this one. For example, in the same document:

- Sibiu - Pitesti will not mean a by-pass for Curtea de Arges. This small town in build on DN7C, A1 will pass south-west towards Tigveni.

- Sibiu - Brasov will not bring a by-pass for Sibiu (this one is already built), and also will not mean a by-pass for Brasov (this will be done by building Brasov - Bacau, since those two meet in NW corner of Brasov).

So please, read those documents with a great state of uncertainty, like there are done by some really unprofesional bureaucrats. And be thankfull that EU ask for a better version.
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Old April 9th, 2015, 05:46 PM   #8011
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Updated motorway masterplan, based on EC recommendations.

No 1 priority is Sibiu-Pitesti
No 2 priority is Bacau-Pascani.

Both are 'core network'.

The other priorities are on the map below.

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Old April 9th, 2015, 06:06 PM   #8012
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Old April 9th, 2015, 09:52 PM   #8013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
Updated motorway masterplan, based on EC recommendations.

No 1 priority is Sibiu-Pitesti
No 2 priority is Bacau-Pascani.

Both are 'core network'.

The other priorities are on the map below.

no question about No 1 priority

just wondering what logic is behind No 2 priority. Moldova ?
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Old April 9th, 2015, 10:24 PM   #8014
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Hmmm, there's no priority on the map. I guess the source is a news article or a press release? Le Clerk, can you please link the source. Thanks in advance.

In addition, why the hell is Bucharest bypass still missing?

IIRC, the last version of the masterplan had much more projects. I guess it's just a part (highest priority?) of the entire masterplan?
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Which new motorways are currently under construction?
Which new motorways will be opened next?

See 'New motorway projects' thread

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Old April 9th, 2015, 11:05 PM   #8015
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This is the source. Here you have also the picture in a better resolution. Of course, Le Clerk reads just the title and than we wonder why he has no clue at all

Priorities:
Sibiu-Pitesti
Bacau-Pascani (very strange...)
Sibiu - Brasov
Brasov - Ploiesti
Pitesti-Craiova
Targu Neamt - Pascani - Iasi
Bors - Suplacu de Barcau - Nadaselu

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
IIRC, the last version of the masterplan had much more projects. I guess it's just a part (highest priority?) of the entire masterplan?
Time horizon=2020(+2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
1.When car hits middle barrier it is thrown into carriage in opposite direction creating pretty much mess, for that You need space in centre of the road.
Yes it can be also used on motorways as in German standard but the problem is with cross section more on that below.
2. In the centre You have 0,75 m from line edge to concrete barrier, on side You have 0,75 m of pavement before drainage starts. So just to sum up Romania tries to squeeze expressway into 18,5 m wide corridor while Germany require minimum 28 m, Czech Republic and Slowakia for expressway require 25,5 m although have some older which were just 22,5 m wide and there are many other examples showing that Expressways in Romania will be rather substandard.
I am fully awaken, such standards have regular dual carriageway roads in many countries for example Czech Republic (as earlier link for their standards was provided)
1. I don't understand exactly what you want to say. That barriers are made of concrete and won't move in case of an impact.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG89EmezYts
2. There is enough space from the edge of the lane to the concrete barrier, aprox. 50 cm. There are expressways without any space.
You have also to remember that these expressways will have the same geometry as motorways. The traffic will be also low compared to other countries. I think it will turn out ok.
The first road that will be build under this standard will be the bypass of Satu Mare. So let us wait a little bit and than we can conclude.

Last edited by cricric; April 9th, 2015 at 11:22 PM.
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Old April 9th, 2015, 11:45 PM   #8016
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In addition, why the hell is Bucharest bypass still missing?
They say that until 2020 (2022) it is enough if they bring the current by-pass which is a pretty bad 1+1 national road to 2*2 standard or something close to that (since still will be jonction unsolved where taking left will be posible). Only after that date they take into consideration A0, an express-way ring outside of Bucharest.

Quote:
I guess it's just a part (highest priority?) of the entire masterplan?
This is what they plan to build until 2020 (2022) whit EU grant (4,7 mld euro) and other sources - government funds or bank loans (7 mld euros).
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Old April 10th, 2015, 12:10 AM   #8017
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Originally Posted by cricric View Post
This is the source. Here you have also the picture in a better resolution. Of course, Le Clerk reads just the title and than we wonder why he has no clue at all
It's stupid to make (stupid) assumptions about other people, but don't give up!


BTW: you found the link !! OMG !!

Quote:
Priorities:
Sibiu-Pitesti
Bacau-Pascani (very strange...)
Sibiu - Brasov
Brasov - Ploiesti
Pitesti-Craiova
Targu Neamt - Pascani - Iasi
Bors - Suplacu de Barcau - Nadaselu


Time horizon=2020(+2)
Rather I didn't have time to list the above. Thanks for the time !
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Last edited by Le Clerk; April 10th, 2015 at 12:47 AM.
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Old April 10th, 2015, 12:12 AM   #8018
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Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Hmmm, there's no priority on the map. I guess the source is a news article or a press release? Le Clerk, can you please link the source. Thanks in advance.
Now you have it.

Quote:
In addition, why the hell is Bucharest bypass still missing?
They think we do not need it. It's postponed after 2020.

Quote:
IIRC, the last version of the masterplan had much more projects. I guess it's just a part (highest priority?) of the entire masterplan?

This contains proposed projects and priorities up to 2020. The rest, such as A0, are postponed after 2020.
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Old April 10th, 2015, 02:15 AM   #8019
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I can safely predict that a new map of "Priorities" will appear shortly ( in this thread of course) and that it will be different from the previous map of 'priorities' and the one before that again.
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Old April 10th, 2015, 08:38 AM   #8020
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I think they fixed all the bugs in the planning, as required by the EC, so it's rather safe to assume this proposal will be the last one, and also the one to be implemented with EU finance.
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