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Old January 4th, 2010, 12:35 PM   #821
mikhal77
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Many thanks for a reply.Look at that network in 2020.Very impressive
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Old January 4th, 2010, 12:53 PM   #822
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The network planned by 2020 is a must for Romania at the moment. We have started to build motorways quite late and we must catch up fast. Now it's a matter of how much money the budget can allot to motorway construction...
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Old January 4th, 2010, 01:13 PM   #823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
The network planned by 2020 is a must for Romania at the moment. We have started to build motorways quite late and we must catch up fast. Now it's a matter of how much money the budget can allot to motorway construction...
Well, reality check will not look that optimistic.
Looking at your map, we need around 3.000 km of highways until 2020 and now we have only around 10% in operation.
So, we need to build around 10% each year to reach that target. That means we need to have around 300 km ready every year from now until 2010. That is the most optimistic construction rate ever knowing that we will not be capable of building more than 3% every year in the next three years.
With that rate we will need to complete 80% of this (2.400 km) in less than 7 years, which is wishful thinking.
My two cents – we will build 500 km more until 2015, and another 800 km until 2020. So in 2020 we will have around 1600 km. For our kids to drive in their electric cars
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Old January 4th, 2010, 01:33 PM   #824
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I am aware of that, but you need to keep in mind that the amounts allocated for motorways have been growing constantly in the past years both from EU funds and from governmental funds. Also, some sections of motorways will be concessioned (like Comarnic-Brasov). This means that the government's financial capacity in motorway building keeps growing every year and while we may not see more than 100 km delivered this year and maybe 200 delivered next year, we might see a lot more delivered from 2013-2014 on.

Don't forget also that we may get a lot more funds from EU starting 2013 for motorway building.

In conclusion, I am cautiously optimistic. And I think that except for Arad-Oradea and Bucharest-Craiova and Tecuci-Albita, we'll have everything else completed. That's about 2300km.
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Old January 4th, 2010, 01:38 PM   #825
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Don't forget also that we may get a lot more funds from EU starting 2013 for motorway building.
What is happening in 2013?
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Old January 4th, 2010, 01:39 PM   #826
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Originally Posted by Skynick View Post
Well, reality check will not look that optimistic.
Looking at your map, we need around 3.000 km of highways until 2020 and now we have only around 10% in operation.
I think what the boss said 2090 and the guy making the maps mistakenly understood 2020 (you know două mii două zeci and două mii nouă zeci). It`s either this or...anyway, anything is possible, most ex-commie countries started building their motorways pretty late, but they got there really fast. Look at Hungary...But anyway the most impressive development is obviously in China, where in 1989 they had about 100 km of motorways and now they have like 40.000..they eneded up building 5000 kms every damn year...I`m not saying Romania is China, but if we build each year like 7% of what China is building we`d get there in no time...
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Old January 4th, 2010, 01:40 PM   #827
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skynick View Post
What is happening in 2013?
The EU will adopt a new budget so we may get more funds for motorways. In fact I am sure we'll get more funds.


PS: I hope you are not taking into account the black coloured network which IMO is planned after 2020. In fact, I made that observation on my map.
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Old January 4th, 2010, 01:41 PM   #828
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Also if we build more motorways, we would solve unemployment problems..
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Old January 4th, 2010, 01:51 PM   #829
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speew View Post
I think what the boss said 2090 and the guy making the maps mistakenly understood 2020 (you know două mii două zeci and două mii nouă zeci). It`s either this or...anyway, anything is possible, most ex-commie countries started building their motorways pretty late, but they got there really fast. Look at Hungary...But anyway the most impressive development is obviously in China, where in 1989 they had about 100 km of motorways and now they have like 40.000..they eneded up building 5000 kms every damn year...I`m not saying Romania is China, but if we build each year like 7% of what China is building we`d get there in no time...
i hate when I read comparisons with China. You know very well we have lenghty and complicated procedures (EU driven) we have to follow in dozens of fields to start working on a motorway. China does not have that, it has lots of money to spend and very cheap and unregulated labour market.

Also, the comparison to Hungary may be a close one, but Hungary had a lot more motorways than Romania at the falll of communism. It also had economic growht in years when Romania's economy was still plunging and could not think of building motorways for insufficient funds.
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Old January 4th, 2010, 01:59 PM   #830
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No comparisons and stuff.

Actually, our only problem is that we are Romanians.

And we are somehow and overall late. And we will be catching-up for everything (in our own pace) for the next 20 years.
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Old January 4th, 2010, 02:04 PM   #831
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No comparisons and stuff.

Actually, our only problem is that we are Romanians.
And we are somehow and overall late.
Sorry, but that conclusion is even more annoying because it sounds like Miorita story. We have a job to do from now on and we'll have to do it. The past may not be the best indicator of what the results will be in the coming years.
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Old January 4th, 2010, 02:11 PM   #832
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Sorry, but that conclusion is even more annoying because it sounds like Miorita story. We have a job to do from now on and we'll have to do it. The past may not be the best indicator of what the results will be in the coming years.
I'm sorry too and I'm doing my best but the reality around me is overwhelming.
I'm not saying that we will not pull this off but it will be on our shift and the paycheck will be immense.

And it has to do with everything from communism to N1H1 but I'm afraid it also has something to do with Miorita.
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Old January 4th, 2010, 02:45 PM   #833
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And it has to do with everything from communism to N1H1 but I'm afraid it also has something to do with Miorita.
What exactly is N1H1? You mean influenza A virus subtype H1N1? You do realize that this virus subtype is actually here for a looong time and you and I probably been infected with it at least once since it's the most common cause of flu in humans, do you?

You probably meant to say H1N1/09, the novel so-called "new flu" virus, but I still fail to see the link between it and motorways.
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Old January 4th, 2010, 05:12 PM   #834
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motorway construction progess

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skynick View Post
Well, reality check will not look that optimistic.
Looking at your map, we need around 3.000 km of highways until 2020 and now we have only around 10% in operation.
So, we need to build around 10% each year to reach that target. That means we need to have around 300 km ready every year from now until 2010. That is the most optimistic construction rate ever knowing that we will not be capable of building more than 3% every year in the next three years.
With that rate we will need to complete 80% of this (2.400 km) in less than 7 years, which is wishful thinking.
My two cents – we will build 500 km more until 2015, and another 800 km until 2020. So in 2020 we will have around 1600 km. For our kids to drive in their electric cars

I believe Skynick is right.
it has nothing to do with the Romanian nation (as earlier stated). somebody was comparing Hungary to Romania (again mistake). I was in Romania many times and it is obvioulsy not as flat as Hungary is. So requires more funds and more complex projects. all I can say is the Romanian government/Romanian Road Authorities do not have enough practise with dealing with very complex and complicated matters as the motorway construction is (greenies, tenders, law, EU requirements). everybody needs some practise, so taking into account you guys have just started buliding highways, in the nearest future you would come accross lots of issues - which are definately not included in your highways projects. OK, I am "smart" now, because we (in Poland) are something like 2-4 years ahead in highway constructions. So if somebody tells me you gonna have almost 3000 km within 10 years, then, hmmm, well, does not sound quite serious...
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Old January 4th, 2010, 05:30 PM   #835
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I believe Skynick is right.
it has nothing to do with the Romanian nation (as earlier stated). somebody was comparing Hungary to Romania (again mistake). I was in Romania many times and it is obvioulsy not as flat as Hungary is. So requires more funds and more complex projects.
You are right about that. 2/3 of Romania is hill, valley and mountain. That alone may raise the motorway cost at least 2-3 times or more than for a motorway built in a plain geography.

Quote:
all I can say is the Romanian government/Romanian Road Authorities do not have enough practise with dealing with very complex and complicated matters as the motorway construction is (greenies, tenders, law, EU requirements).
That's also very correct. In fact, I would say that the government has so far managed to gain experience by doing several mistakes so I only hope they have learned something and will proceed smoothly and faster from now on.

Quote:
So if somebody tells me you gonna have almost 3000 km within 10 years, then, hmmm, well, does not sound quite serious...
I do not think we'll be able to build 2700 km of motorway in 10 years, but I would be ready to bet some money on 2000 km to be built by 2020. Hopefully.
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Last edited by Le Clerk; January 4th, 2010 at 05:35 PM.
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Old January 4th, 2010, 06:54 PM   #836
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I do not think we'll be able to build 2700 km of motorway in 10 years, but I would be ready to bet some money on 2000 km to be built by 2020. Hopefully.
I am afraid within next 10 years you will not even have a half of what you bet. look at Italy, the mountainous country. they have altogether 6500 km, it took them 80 years to achieve that result.

I am not an expert of road construction projects, but who calculated funds for 2000 km of motorways ? how much is 1 km of motorway in Romania ? how much would it be within 10 years ?

ltaken fro italian highways thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrelot View Post
I guess (correct me if I'm wrong) Italy has the largest and most expensive ongoing modernization highway project: the A3 motorway from Salerno to Reggio Calabria. It's 466km long, mostly crossing a very rugged mountainious region (many strechts run over 1.000 m) with hard-rock geological features, seismic risks and dozens of special works. Estimated costs are up to € 11 billions, and work is expected to be completed by 2013 (started in 2002).

Modernization consist on expanding lanes (it was a narrow 2X2, no shoulder, 90 kph higway with thight curves and short-and-abrupt junctions) to a regular 2 X 2 with standard widht lanes and shoulder, and a lot of realignment. So far, 190km circa have been opened to traffic, and 240km circa are under construction. There are 40 km on bid process still.
OK. you may say this is not a one-to one example. anyway if we assume the romanian plain is quite similar to the italian one, than just "a modernization" is worthy €11 billion for less than 500 km. it is not easy to find €40-50 billion for 2000km (even from UE )
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Old January 5th, 2010, 01:29 PM   #837
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Are you sure they aren't doing the expropriations for the enlargement of the current ringroad to 2x2? Many journalists confuse these things...
I found the source. The ministry will spend 250 M.EUR on expropriations for A0. The other good news is that about 30 M.EUR wil be used for expropriations in between Ploiesti and Comarnic, which means they are preparing to contract that section of A3 as well.

Besides that, the other good news is that they plant to contract works for the whole section of A2 from Nadlac to Pitesti. This means that in 2010 there will be works for 500 km and contracts for the whole lenght of A2, A1, and A3 - about 2000 km of motorway. At least, that's what they are planning to do.

Here's a map for those who do not know the numbers for the Romanian motorways:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skynick View Post
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Old January 5th, 2010, 01:35 PM   #838
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Skynick, can you please mark also A0 (bucharest's ring motorway)? Thanks.

Here's the approximate route:



or better here:

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Old January 5th, 2010, 03:15 PM   #839
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Updated

I also added the "so called" express roads segments. I also intend to plot a special map with express roads development plan.

Cheers

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Old January 5th, 2010, 03:16 PM   #840
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The map would be somewhat better with a coastline and a legend
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