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Old January 16th, 2010, 09:41 AM   #921
and802
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Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
Delivered? 42 km
U/C? About 100 km

But you need to know that the contract was suspended for about 2 years.

if the contract was signed 5 years ago (2004) and so far there are 42 kms in use, well I must say this is not a good prognostic for future. it gives 10 kms per year. well, a 2 year suspence is not an excuse for a government/a road agency (I know you do not use it as a argument for delay).

I would go back for a second to the post I published around 2 weeks ago - in my opinion till 2020 there will be less than 1000 km of new motorways built. the official plan from my point of view is not doable.

I wonder which European country does the best in terms of motorway construction (I guess Eastern part of Germany)
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Old January 16th, 2010, 10:12 AM   #922
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Originally Posted by and802 View Post
if the contract was signed 5 years ago (2004) and so far there are 42 kms in use, well I must say this is not a good prognostic for future. it gives 10 kms per year. well, a 2 year suspence is not an excuse for a government/a road agency (I know you do not use it as a argument for delay).
Yes, but that's not a realistic way to look at it. The contract was suspended until 2007 I think, when the contractor started working. The terrain is a very difficult one (hilly) so they have to build many viaducts. In any case, after 2 years, the contractor delivered 42 km last year, with many other km being U/C and they are advancing pretty fast. Transylvania motorway (about 300 km of it) will be completed by the end of 2013.

Quote:
I would go back for a second to the post I published around 2 weeks ago - in my opinion till 2020 there will be less than 1000 km of new motorways built. the official plan from my point of view is not doable.
I think we'll have 1200 km by the end of 2014-2015. I am a bit more optimistic, if the current trend keeps up and the contract deadlines are observed, even with some delays!


Quote:
I wonder which European country does the best in terms of motorway construction (I guess Eastern part of Germany)
That's a difficult question but the answer would be IMO that country which allocates a lot of money for the job.

BTW: we should see the delivery of about 100 km only this year, and much more in 2011, about 200 km. So in 2011, we will have about 550 km already.
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Last edited by Le Clerk; January 16th, 2010 at 10:19 AM.
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Old January 16th, 2010, 11:55 AM   #923
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I wonder which European country does the best in terms of motorway construction (I guess Eastern part of Germany)
Spain. They've turned a 3000 kilometer motorway network into a 13.500 kilometer motorway network in less than 20 years.
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Old January 16th, 2010, 12:21 PM   #924
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The terrain is a very difficult one (hilly) so they have to build many viaducts. In any case, after 2 years, the contractor delivered 42 km last year, with many other km being U/C and they are advancing pretty fast. Transylvania motorway (about 300 km of it) will be completed by the end of 2013.
That's something that very few people know or understand ...

“Normally in hilly ground, we would use the excavated soil from the cuttings to fill the valleys,” says Bogdan Sgarcitu, external affairs manager of construction company Bechtel. “But on this stretch the clay-like soil cannot be compacted, so we’ve had to use many more piles than normal: in just three months we installed more than 500, some drilled as deep as 24 metres. We’ve also had to transport millions of tonnes of materials over some less-than-perfect infrastructure.”
http://unitedkingdom.cat.com/cda/fil...om%2006.08.pdf

http://www.unibuc.ro/uploads_ro/47886/930/Pop.pdf
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Old January 16th, 2010, 06:06 PM   #925
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I would go back for a second to the post I published around 2 weeks ago - in my opinion till 2020 there will be less than 1000 km of new motorways built. the official plan from my point of view is not doable.

You are so right! Less than 1000 km till 2020 it's a fair figure. I'm optimistic if i'd say that Transilvania motorway will be finished before 2018. That's around 400 km. Maybe...just maybe, with huge efforts and billions of euros sucked up by corruption, we will have around 800 km till 2020.
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Old January 16th, 2010, 06:12 PM   #926
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You are so right! Less than 1000 km till 2020 it's a fair figure. I'm optimistic if i'd say that Transilvania motorway will be finished before 2018. That's around 400 km. Maybe...just maybe, with huge efforts and billions of euros sucked up by corruption, we will have around 800 km till 2020.
Are you watching Mircea Badea and will put feathers in your pants if you are wrong like he did?

Cause I have the feeling you are talking like a TV showman.
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Old January 16th, 2010, 06:16 PM   #927
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Nah, what happened in the past (corruption, delays) is not necessarily to continue in the future. I doubt if you can compare the construction speed before 2007 with the construction speed in the next 10 years. Building a motorway usually takes 3 years regardless of distance. What is more important is which sections are under construction. If all of the A3 would be U/C right now, it's safe to say the entire road will be completed by 2014. But, if they're going through it phase by phase, it takes much longer of course.
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Old January 16th, 2010, 06:23 PM   #928
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Nah, what happened in the past (corruption, delays) is not necessarily to continue in the future. I doubt if you can compare the construction speed before 2007 with the construction speed in the next 10 years. Building a motorway usually takes 3 years regardless of distance. What is more important is which sections are under construction. If all of the A3 would be U/C right now, it's safe to say the entire road will be completed by 2014. But, if they're going through it phase by phase, it takes much longer of course.
There is very improbable to meet corruption in motorway construction, because the tender procedure is very strict, in compliance with EU requirements, and with so many international players that corruption can be very easily spotted and blocked. Transylvania Motorway is the exception though because it's the only contract that has raised a scandal so far in so far motorway construction is concerned in Romania, because it was awarded to the American company Bechtel without a tender, as a result of pressure by the US - the newspapers' speculation. NO OTHER motorway contract in Romania caused a scandal anymore, yet the media here tends to be very speculative and many people bite the speculations too easily and treat a single even as a general practice. The real problem in Romania is the lack of money for motorway construction!

A3 is not U/C now on the entire length, but only on some stretches. I think about 100 km, but more sections will become U/C this year and the next one. A1 though is planned to enter construction works on the WHOLE LENGTH this year or the coming one for the remaining sections (at the latest).

The only section which is under a question mark about when it will enter construction works is the A3 motorway section between Brasov-Targu Mures. That's a real question, and the government wants to take that from Bechtel and tender it to another company.
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Old January 16th, 2010, 06:30 PM   #929
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Are you watching Mircea Badea and will put feathers in your pants if you are wrong like he did?

Cause I have the feeling you are talking like a TV showman.
Who's mircea badea

Any reasonable man living in this country can see that motorways are only a wet dream for romanian drivers. It's always been! We don't even have decent national 2 lane roads. Motorways are for rich countries, not for 3rd world ones.
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Old January 16th, 2010, 06:31 PM   #930
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Originally Posted by andrei_ro View Post
Who's mircea badea

Any reasonable man living in this country can see that motorways are only a wet dream for romanian drivers. It's always been! We don't even have decent national 2 lane roads. Motorways are for rich countries, not for 3rd world ones.
Good thinking!
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Old January 16th, 2010, 06:39 PM   #931
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Nah, what happened in the past (corruption, delays) is not necessarily to continue in the future. I doubt if you can compare the construction speed before 2007 with the construction speed in the next 10 years. Building a motorway usually takes 3 years regardless of distance. What is more important is which sections are under construction. If all of the A3 would be U/C right now, it's safe to say the entire road will be completed by 2014. But, if they're going through it phase by phase, it takes much longer of course.


Corruption has its own tradition in this part of Europe for more than 200 years! It's amuzing to believe it will soon disappear.

And motorways WILL be built phase by phase because, unfortunately, there are no money for this job. The only reason the 2B section of Transylvania motorway was finished last month was the electoral campaign. And that says a lot about those dumb politicians' ambition to build motorways.

Last edited by andrei_ro; January 16th, 2010 at 06:44 PM.
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Old January 16th, 2010, 06:42 PM   #932
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NO OTHER motorway contract in Romania caused a scandal anymore [...]
Are you sure, Le Clerk ? I remember something about changing in the last moment of tender specifications just to be sure that some Romanian contractors will be qualified to an auction. And I also remember that those contractors have finally won the auction despite the fact that none of them have ever built one km of motorway. Yup, I'm talking about Moara Vlăsiei-Ploieşti.
And about the motorway network: imo you are way too optimistic. Me, I completely agree with andrei_ro. But let's hope we are both wrong and you are right.
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Old January 16th, 2010, 07:07 PM   #933
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Are you sure, Le Clerk ? I remember something about changing in the last moment of tender specifications just to be sure that some Romanian contractors will be qualified to an auction. And I also remember that those contractors have finally won the auction despite the fact that none of them have ever built one km of motorway. Yup, I'm talking about Moara Vlăsiei-Ploieşti.
I know what you are talking about, and the change was from the requirement that the tender companies must have been built at least a number of km of motorway to the requirement that the tender companies must have been worked on a certain number of highway. And was a result of a (NORMAL, I would say) governmental drive to allow for normal competition conditions among Romanian and foreign companies, the letter being positively discriminated (as though that was needed!) and would won all tenders because of that discriminatory requirement asking for a history in motorway construction works. I do not find that normal, but as a competition inhibitor against the domestic companies. And, IMO, it was good that the condition of a certain NO of motorway km was taken out.

And, BTW: if there was anything unruly about that contract, I am SURE the competitors would've slammed it down in appeal, as it happens with many other tenders which are suspended by discontent tenderers just for the sake of blocking the procedure from being completed. You know this is very frequent here, and that participants used EVERY minor mistake in the tender documentation to appeal it and block the entire procedure!

Quote:
And about the motorway network: imo you are way too optimistic. Me, I completely agree with andrei_ro. But let's hope we are both wrong and you are right.
Are we betting on the feathers thingie?
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Old January 16th, 2010, 07:23 PM   #934
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Are we betting on the feathers thingie?
Hoping I will still be here in 2013, why not ?
And I will raise the stake: till 2013 they won't build not even a single kilometer between Târgu Mureş and Braşov.
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Old January 16th, 2010, 07:35 PM   #935
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Hoping I will still be here in 2013, why not ?
And I will raise the stake: till 2013 they won't build not even a single kilometer between Târgu Mureş and Braşov.
I won't bet on that because I did mention a few posts above that it is unknown what will happen with that section. But I would bet that Tg Mures-Bors will be completed by 2013 or 2014 at latest.
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Old January 17th, 2010, 12:24 AM   #936
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Spain. They've turned a 3000 kilometer motorway network into a 13.500 kilometer motorway network in less than 20 years.
no, this is not fair
Spaniards do not play fair !!! they should have done it much slower !!!

500 km of motorways a year. still difficult to imagine

anyway, there must be some consultants on the market, who used to advise a Spanish road agency/a Spanish government. why not to hire them ?

Chris, you gave me a homework. now I have to read all 70 pages of the Spanish thread, but knowledge is power.

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...Building a motorway usually takes 3 years regardless of distance. What is more important is which sections are under construction. If all of the A3 would be U/C right now, it's safe to say the entire road will be completed by 2014...
nothing but the truth. that is the point - 3 years once a contract is signed.

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I won't bet on that because I did mention a few posts above that it is unknown what will happen with that section. But I would bet that Tg Mures-Bors will be completed by 2013 or 2014 at latest.
Tg Mures-Bors route is around 250 km.
100 km - U/C
42 km - done
100 km - not started.

taking into consideration a motorway construction takes 3 years once a contract is signed, you are very short of time. unless you take guys from Spain

last thing. we do not live in a perfect world. there are delays in performance, and it does not happen very often a contract is finished on time. what is more it could happen a contract would be cancelled (lately it has happened in Poland Alpine Bau consortium resigned/was fired).

anyway in my opinion delivery date would be rescheduled for 2014/2015
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Old January 17th, 2010, 01:49 AM   #937
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[...]anyway in my opinion delivery date would be rescheduled for 2014/2015
You think so ? I don't know, I'm afraid it's too soon, this is still Romania...
Now seriously speaking I don't give a rat's ass about Câmpia Turzii-Braşov section of Transylvania Motorway. I don't think today's traffic is justifying a motorway there (except that very annoying Ungheni-Târgu Mureş section). Of course, I would love to have motorways all over the country but let's face it: we can't afford it, at least for now.
For me is by far more important to put all the money we have into the northern branch of the Pan-European Corridor IV: Arad-Timişoara-Deva-Sibiu-Bucharest. Reasons: 1) it's a Pan-European Corridor, of course ; 2) the road traffic is a living hell and 3) Romania can use European money to build it.

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taking into consideration a motorway construction takes 3 years once a contract is signed, you are very short of time. unless you take guys from Spain
OK, we have some Spaniards here, Fomento de Construcciones y Contratas (FCC). They are building right now a motorway between Arad and Timişoara. So I have the highest hopes.
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Old January 17th, 2010, 01:53 AM   #938
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Tg Mures-Bors route is around 250 km.
100 km - U/C
42 km - done
100 km - not started.

taking into consideration a motorway construction takes 3 years once a contract is signed, you are very short of time. unless you take guys from Spain

last thing. we do not live in a perfect world. there are delays in performance, and it does not happen very often a contract is finished on time. what is more it could happen a contract would be cancelled (lately it has happened in Poland Alpine Bau consortium resigned/was fired).

anyway in my opinion delivery date would be rescheduled for 2014/2015
The contract is signed for the whole section. We'll see, but I think they'll finish the stretch between Tg Mures and Bors by 2014 at latest.
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Old January 17th, 2010, 08:23 PM   #939
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Sibiu bypass (part of A1 motorway), January updates

All photos have been resized. If you want to see the pictures (and MANY more) at the original size, click here. To extract the files you will need all three archives and 7-Zip (freeware) or WinRAR (shareware) installed. But pay attention: first you will have to extract those three archives from a larger one, because the hosting site also compress any uploaded file.

Here is a map of the bypass (in red). The six small green circles represent the six places where I took pictures:



1. Sibiu bypass near Mohu. Above - the bypass; bellow - National Route 1 (E68-E81):




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Old January 17th, 2010, 08:26 PM   #940
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2. Junction with the secondary route Sibiu-Agnita:










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