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Old October 22nd, 2017, 07:22 PM   #9601
Sineva
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Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
I will not deny that Poland has a better road administration, but Poland is flat while Romania is 2/3 hills and mountains. And the news is that we have pretty much completed the motorway network in the plains a decade ago. Now, everything is or will be built, with small exception (A0), is mountain or hills.

I will put this to you so that you get the language.

PS: this is not the peak of the funding season. The peak is the end of the season, doh. And Romania will probably manage to do what it did last season, ie attract 90% of the funding with deadline extensions. I hope though we will get more than 100% considering the proposed projects. The bridge at Braila alone will attract 20% of the funding with the rest probably going to PiSi, remaining works on A3 and new works on A7, which combined are more than the available funding.
That's pretty lame excuse IMO. Poland is also building roads to mountains similar to Romania's highest mountains.

The so called "Zakopianka" (S7 road)


(photos taken from polish forum)








Still there is probably even more expensive road to be build. S19 from Rzeszow to Barwinek (Slovak border), part of Via Carpatia which will lead to Romania BTW. It will have like 3 tunnels.

Also countries of former Yugoslavia with booming motorway construction sites have quite similar mountainious envoirment to Romania

Last edited by Sineva; October 22nd, 2017 at 07:27 PM.
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Old October 22nd, 2017, 07:25 PM   #9602
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Well, he has a point that the far majority of Polish motorways are built on flat land, with some low rolling hills at best. It's the same reason why Slovakia is not building motorways as fast as Poland, it needs many tunnels and bridges.
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Old October 22nd, 2017, 07:30 PM   #9603
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doh. And Romania will probably manage to do what it did last season, ie attract 90% of the funding with deadline extensions.
and Duh!!! There will be no deadline extensions this time.

The EU needs to 'lose' a lot of 2014-2020 projects and seemingly most will be in Romania so everyone else can chill.

There are a few big projects spread across 2 funding periods (meaning 2014-2020 and 2021-2028) like the A1 but most of them need to be built by 2021 or else it is clean back into funding again after 2021.

Then the rules will change again like the definition of 85% did in 2014, and some regions will no longer qualify after 2020 >

see the purple bits which will qualify, maybe not at 85%
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Old October 22nd, 2017, 07:50 PM   #9604
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Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
and Duh!!! There will be no deadline extensions this time.

The EU needs to 'lose' a lot of 2014-2020 projects and seemingly most will be in Romania so everyone else can chill.

There are a few big projects spread across 2 funding periods (meaning 2014-2020 and 2021-2028) like the A1 but most of them need to be built by 2021 or else it is clean back into funding again after 2021. [/IMG]

see the purple bits which will qualify, maybe not at 85%
Wishful thinking.
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Old October 22nd, 2017, 08:12 PM   #9605
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Wishful thinking.
You obviously have no idea of the road authorities elsewhere in the EU who will finish projects inside the window...unlike Romania...and will get the funds...again unlike Romania.

I'd say even Slovakia will draw down more EU road funds in the current window than Romania will. Never mind Poland.
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Old October 22nd, 2017, 08:44 PM   #9606
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And this relates however with the with random sentence above ?


As I said, if we count the costs of the potential EU funding on currently U/C or projects to be completed by 2020, such as A0, A1, A3, A10, A12, A7, Braila bridge, we easily go over twice the EU funding for these projects. Solely A12 (EUR 1 b), Braila bridge (EUR 0.4 b) and A0 (EUR 1 b) top the EU allocation for road funding in Romania. That not counting the other sections on A10 , A1, and A3 completed by that time as well. Of course, Pitesti-Sibiu will probably carve into the next budget because it will not be possibly over in the coming 4 years, but the current budget allocation for Romania will most probably be topped by all odds.
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Old October 22nd, 2017, 10:35 PM   #9607
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Le Clerk, I would really like to share your enthusiasm about the road infrastructure development in Romania, but I simple can't see the positive signs that you seem to have spotted. And some of your comments really seem as unrealistic as the claims of many of your (former) transport ministers, e.g the claim Lugoj-Deva Lot 4 will open in 2017..

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I really do not understand the fuss here about the intended upgrade of Transfagarasan . I am trying to understand the logic behind it. Probably because some assume that this will take money from other projects. But this is not the case we do not have a problem with money but with not enough good projects.
...

I think you are mixing two things here
- Romania would have enough funds available for road infrastructure from EU supported projects, but doesn't manage to use them all. Thus indeed, it would be great if Romania would have more eligible projects prepared!
- But a Transfagarasan upgrade is very likely not part of any EU transport corridor, and I severely doubt that other funds such Regional Development Fund would support such a project. But if you have information that there is indeed an application for such funding, please let me know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
I will not deny that Poland has a better road administration, but Poland is flat while Romania is 2/3 hills and mountains. And the news is that we have pretty much completed the motorway network in the plains a decade ago. Now, everything is or will be built, with small exception (A0), is mountain or hills.

I totally agree, Romanian landscape is way more difficult than Polish, or Hungarian, for that matter. But still, even if the construction in Romania would be 2-3 times more expensive due to the terrain, the number of finished kilometres still lags behind more.

And honestly, almost everything that is finished in the last years, and is under construction now, isn't a mountain highway anyway; not an exhaustive list, but to look at some projects:
- A1 Nadlac - Margina is almost perfectly flat
- A1 Margina-Deva you have somewhat of a challenging terrain till Deva, but also nothing of the extraordinary; besides one hill range to pass between Cosava and Ohaba (but again, the change in elevation is rather marginal), you have a rather wide valley to work in.
- Also further till Sibiu, you have maybe 1-2 more pronounced elevation changes, but nothing like an alpine mountain pass, that would require a 5-10 km long tunnel to cross...
- A10 is similar to the aforementioned, a couple of smaller elevation changes, but mostly a wide valley to work in. Granted, a number of longer bridges due to the river.
- A3 from Gilau north is maybe the big exception, that is indeed a section with mostly viaducts and cuttings.
- A3 Bucharest-Ploiesti is then again nothing significant either.

I might have forgotten one project or the other, but I think the overall picture would be the same.

So, your argument of the Romania not being flat vs. Poland, and thus the reduced number of kms opened, kind of falls apart here. If you'd have complete Sibiu-Pitesti in that funding cycle till 2020, and you'd therefore been able to only built a smaller amount of kms than Poland, it would be very valid.
But in reality, nothing of the complex motorway sections is even started, yet you have many delays on the easier sections... So, road administration (and politics) is surely the major part to blame here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
PS: this is not the peak of the funding season. The peak is the end of the season, doh. And Romania will probably manage to do what it did last season, ie attract 90% of the funding with deadline extensions. I hope though we will get more than 100% considering the proposed projects. The bridge at Braila alone will attract 20% of the funding with the rest probably going to A0, PiSi (mountain), remaining works on A3 and new works on A7 (both hill regions), which combined are more than the available funding (or probably doble the available funding). From the looks of it, ATM we have good projects to put EU money in.

It is likely the peak of relatively plenty and relatively high-percentage funding. It is expected to be less attractive in the next cycle, and that was already the case before Brexit, which means the loss of another big net payer, and thus redistributable money.

And mind, 2020 is the end of the current cycle, so even the bridge in Braila will be difficult to fully claim - it has 12 months design, and 36 months construction, which means, even if they'd start on 1.1. 2018 (which I highly doubt, given the usual delays of the authorities in issuing the permits), you'd end in 12/2021, according to the contract! Maybe you can again phase it to the next cycle, but it won't be the 20% funding..

The difference in Poland simply is - at the beginning of the funding cycle, projects are readily prepared, and they can start more or less at the first day. Romania, 10 years after joining the EU, has yet to adapt their structures and politics to make effective use of the EU money. If the EU was strict, and would have not retro-actively accepted and paid for projects that were initially launched outside the EU framework, your absorption rate would be even worse..

And because of that, I am really wondering why you are so positive, and don't have a more critical view to "the next big project announced by politicians that will be finalised within a very short and unrealistic timeframe".
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Last edited by rudiwien; October 23rd, 2017 at 11:41 AM.
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Old October 22nd, 2017, 10:46 PM   #9608
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A7 (both hill regions) -really?
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Old October 22nd, 2017, 10:49 PM   #9609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudiwien View Post

And because of that, I am really wondering why you are so positive, and don't have a more critical view to "the next big project announced by politicians that will be finalised within a very short and unrealistic timeframe".
I had to give him a list of the projects which were AGREED with the EU in 2013/4 (he had no idea what they were) and they are precisely the ones that have not started. Not a digger onsite anywhere. We are half way through the programme funding window now.

Still he comes along with more fantasy plans and fantasy priorities that are not funded from any source and certainly not from Europe.
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Old October 22nd, 2017, 10:55 PM   #9610
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A7 (both hill regions) -really?
A2 (and the A4 extension) is the only only flat motorway in Romania. A7 is partly flat, but not to much up to Focsani. Then it gets pretty hilly. => because only SE Romania is flat. The rest is not.

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Old October 22nd, 2017, 11:06 PM   #9611
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Try driving on A1 Arad-Nadlac. It's as flat as it gets. Not a single hill or valley on those ~60 km.
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Old October 22nd, 2017, 11:30 PM   #9612
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Yes, and those 60 km of the A1 motorway, of the approx 400 km total lenght. Not counting Bucharest-Pitesti, which is already built, the rest is hill and especially mountain on about 100 km of PiSi.
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Old October 22nd, 2017, 11:32 PM   #9613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudiwien View Post
Le Clerk, I would really like to share your enthusiasm about the road infrastructure development in Romania, but I simple can't see the positive signs that you seem to have discovered. And some of your comments really seem as unrealistic as the claims of many of your (former) transport ministers, e.g the claim Lugoj-Deva will open in 2017..


.
rudiwien, I am not going to quote your long post and informative indeed. I am just curious to what extent there are clear regulations which mandate funding only for project fully completed by say 2020. Thank you.
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 12:20 AM   #9614
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Quote:
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the news is that we have pretty much completed the motorway network in the plains a decade ago.
Wait...what?
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 12:30 AM   #9615
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Wait...what?
You are new here, meet Le Clerk.
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 12:37 AM   #9616
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Wait...what?
You read well. What other completely flat motorways apart from A2 and A0 ?! It is new to put it that way but none else really.
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 12:40 AM   #9617
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You are new here, meet Le Clerk.
I am still waiting for an answer from you the pro as well, on the EU regulation that prevents funding for projects completed not at the end of the 2020. Or for that matter from all the pros here.
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 01:15 AM   #9618
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I am still waiting for an answer from you the pro as well, on the EU regulation that prevents funding for projects completed not at the end of the 2020. Or for that matter from all the pros here.
I never said they had to be built by the end of 2020 but by the end of 2021 or so with actual drawdown in 2022 latest.

As a mountain contract is often 4 years (3 years somewhere flatter) that means that construction must start beginning 2018 to finish end 2021 and draw down funding. Most roads that are supposed to benefit from EU funding are Mountain contracts.

Add the Romanian love for court cases from losing bidders and it looks like it is impossible to get any large project under construction in time, even if the project were actually tendered right now.

Right now the EU financial position is such a mess that a recommendation is that the unbuilt projects from 2014 to 2020 are rolled into a short window from 2021 to 2025 and that no new projects (not approved for finance already) are built during those years. The main beneficiary would be Romania it seems.

From 2021 to 2025 the EU is down €8bn (Net) income a year from Brexit and relatively few regions will lose access to Cohesion funding after 2020 (the ones shown in deep purple on this map)

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Old October 23rd, 2017, 07:12 AM   #9619
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A2 (and the A4 extension) is the only only flat motorway in Romania. A7 is partly flat, but not to much up to Focsani. Then it gets pretty hilly. => because only SE Romania is flat. The rest is not.
Siret meadow is wide enough to make room for A7 all the way to Pascani. Please stop saying A7 is hilly, because is not. Just look a DN2 and DJ208. Or feroviar 500 artery from Ploiesti to Pascani.
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 10:15 AM   #9620
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Ok, I will have to ignore (and apologize) for LeClerk saying. I am embarassed by them, but at least his reputation is well established so I hope no one really thinks that his words reflect Romanian public thoughts.

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Someone do correct me if I am wrong but I understand that:

In 2016 0km of motorway opened in Romania
In 2017 (so far) 0km of motorway opened in Romania

And that is the reality not the fantasy.
There is a pretty simple (and incredible good) explanation for that. Most of the 2016 was "lost" because FINALLY someone had the balls to stop any works if they don't have all the papers in order.

Basically up until late 2015, everybody knew that all the construction sites were more or less illegal. No building permit, no environmental agreement, no expropriation papers, and so on... All those papers took months or years to get in order (lack of procedures, length of procedures, many institution slowing the process, a way to impose on contractor to set aside a small gift for those in power to sign the papares, ...) and the pressure was for works to go on even if the papers were not issued. So in the end we end up with situation where pieces of A1 highway were inaugurated the day after the building permit was issued. Which is stupid (not to mention illegal).

So in late November 2015 the decision was made to stop all building sites where there was a problem with papers. And that meant long delays, but at least now the pressure is on state agencies to do their work on time.

And to see how bad iti is - this I/C between A1 and A10 (the yellow sector, km 0+000 up until km 0+300) still don't have the building permit issued. The contract for LOT 1 of A10 (first 17km) was signed in 2014, big part of this lot could be open in 2018 as works are on going quite well.
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