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Old October 23rd, 2017, 11:00 AM   #9621
and802
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
I will not deny that Poland has a better road administration, but Poland is flat while Romania is 2/3 hills and mountains. And the news is that we have pretty much completed the motorway network in the plains a decade ago. Now, everything is or will be built, with small exception (A0), is mountain or hills.

....
it does not matter at all whether Poland countryside is flat or hilly.
the main idea behind it is that in business you need to be predictable and have a plan. you know well ahead the milestones (UE Budget) and based on them you organise your internal actions to meet the deadlines/prepare suitable deliverables. if, at the end, you build only half of what Poland does (due to more expensive construction works) this is a different story. all I am lack here is a map of the Romanian motorway backbone with dates. as long as this is not prepared all Le Clerk news are just an example how miserable Romania is. I am sorry my Romanians friends this is not personal
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 11:15 AM   #9622
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You are not interested in any Romanian infrastructure news, so please move along on the superior Polish flat lands.
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@sponge_bob: if there is no regulation banning financing post-2020, I expect the decision is going to be made on opportunity, as it did already happen before, that is the Commission will be interested that Romania will finance the infrastructure in the EU interest. Why ?! Because it already did happen so. Your predictions are 0 value as long as are not validated by law or experience.
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 11:21 AM   #9623
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BTW: 3 more sections of AT on tender today ~ value EUR 0.5 b.

3A2 + 3B1 Nădășelu - Mihăiești + Mihăiești – Zimbor (16,8 km + 13,26 km)
3B2 Zimbor - Poarta Sălajului (12,24 km)
3B5 Nușfalău - Suplacu de Barcău (13,55 km)
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 11:22 AM   #9624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pasadia View Post
Ok, I will have to ignore (and apologize) for LeClerk saying. I am embarassed by them, but at least his reputation is well established so I hope no one really thinks that his words reflect Romanian public thoughts.
Can you get more pathetic than that? You can.
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 12:27 PM   #9625
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Countries like Slovakia and Poland have plans...they go much slower in Slovakia as every plan seems to have a Carpathian tunnel or 3 nowadays and costs €20m a km. Yet they were all busy tendering in 2015 and building today as their plan aligned with EU funding.

End result is that by 2020 all the road from the #1 to the #2 city will be done in Slovakia except for a 15km stretch with a tunnel and that will go ahead around 2020 or 2021 latest


Poland just gets more kms per annum but is is much bigger and with no Carpathians between big cities.

Romania has a vague plan to build not 1 but 3 major Carpathian motorways and none are progressing meaningfully...and add some Carpathian expressways after 2030 to that lot.
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 12:53 PM   #9626
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Le Clerk, I don't think it is really appropriate to get insulting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by and802 View Post
it does not matter at all whether Poland countryside is flat or hilly.
the main idea behind it is that in business you need to be predictable and have a plan. you know well ahead the milestones (UE Budget) and based on them you organise your internal actions to meet the deadlines/prepare suitable deliverables. if, at the end, you build only half of what Poland does (due to more expensive construction works) this is a different story.
..

This is exactly what I tried to express as well. It doesn't matter whether Romania builds less kilometres than Poland, or not (of course also in proportion, Poland receives more funds in absolute numbers). It is important that you would actually use the money that is set aside to Romania. Whether you spend that on building 200kms in the mountains, 1000km in the flat, or 500 km in hilly terrain (numbers are just random, ofc), nobody would care for. But projects should be well prepared and carried out; of course, unforeseen events can happen, but that should be the exception, while with the Romanian road projects, this is rather the rule.
And I think this is disappointing, because Romania is wasting a lot of opportunities, in industry and tourism, that a better transport infrastructure (I don't even want to start discussing about trains...) would bring.

But Le Clerk, with how you present some statements as facts, I could only get the impression that you are, in disguise, the spokesperson of the transport ministry... Otherwise one would take such info with a grain of salt, and not always use the "difficult terrain" as a pretext to explain all the delays...


However, yes, I made a mistake with 2022 vs 2020, projects need to end "just" at the end of 2022 (but afaik they need to be started before 2020).
But even this is, as others pointed out, difficult to achieve for Romania. Most projects that are running and eligible for funding now were actually intended to be finished in the previous funding cycle, and they have partially been billed for that already. There are very few actually new projects that are "already" started, while almost 4 years of the funding cycle have already past. For huge projects such as Pitesti-Sibiu, this seems very little time, judging from how long it takes to get a motorway approved and built in the easier terrain in Romania..

Whether or not the EU will always accept phasing to the next period is also not certain, especially if funds get tight. I would expect that there is a special care for the countries still catching up, but once money gets really tight, that might change quickly.
Besides the net loss of the UK contributions, there are also ideas of using some of the EU budget for providing "services" in areas such as migration, border protection, security and defence. If there isn't any new money income (and it is unlikely that net payers will want to pay more..), then there have to be cuts somewhere else, and that might just be also in transport projects, leaving a smaller cake to share. That's why it was argued that indeed, it is a shame that Romania isn't able to fully draw on funds today.
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 12:54 PM   #9627
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And in other news, he have a new head at Minister of Transportation, and it already announce some changing in some state agencies already (for now head of Railway station in Bucharest and some other managers in CFR - Romanian railways company). But usually these means that also manager of CNAIR (Romanian company in charge with highways and national roads) could change soon, so new plans, new delays, new big statements.
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 03:58 PM   #9628
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Guys, please... let's keep this thread clean and informative. It's obvious that CNAIR (Romanian road company) is one of rotten organizational culture. At the same time, it's also clear why in the past year and a half or so there has been hardly any motorway opening - works were halted pretty much everywhere for ~ 6 months - 1 year, as pasadia here explained very well.

---

Quote:
Originally Posted by sułły
Tender for an additional 55km of A3 to be launched by the end of this year

Quote:
3A2 + 3B1 Nădășelu - Mihăiești + Mihăiești – Zimbor (16.8 km + 13.26 km)

3B2 Zimbor - Poarta Sălajului (12.24 km)

3B5 Nușfalău - Suplacu de Barcău (13.55 km)
It's official.
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 09:18 PM   #9629
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I posted above but some pathetic dudes insist on apologizing for nothing just to appear smartarses.

Grim news. Craiova-Pitesti DX design+build bids opened for 2 sections (57 km - roughly half of A12) for an estimated EUR 425 m. For those with a genuine interest, bidders are here.
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 11:33 PM   #9630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudiwien View Post
Le Clerk, I don't think it is really appropriate to get insulting.
Right. Not even by becoming deviously insulting ...

Quote:
This is exactly what I tried to express as well. It doesn't matter whether Romania builds less kilometres than Poland, or not (of course also in proportion, Poland receives more funds in absolute numbers).
I think Poland gets more EU money in relative terms as well. Per capita that is.

Quote:
It is important that you would actually use the money that is set aside to Romania. Whether you spend that on building 200kms in the mountains, 1000km in the flat, or 500 km in hilly terrain (numbers are just random, ofc), nobody would care for. But projects should be well prepared and carried out; of course, unforeseen events can happen, but that should be the exception, while with the Romanian road projects, this is rather the rule.
I think there is a putative concern on Romania's capacity to absorb the entire EU allocation of funds for infrastructure for the on-going financial season. I already mentioned this, but the existing projects are topping the allocation, delays taken into consideration. Only in the past few days we had new tenders for works on A3, A12 and A0, and a winner on Braila bridge. These are enough to top the existing EU allocation - not to mention works on A10 which are due to be completed this year and next one, which are also drawn from this financial season. There are reasons to complain, but think there is just too much unwarranted whining here.


Quote:
And I think this is disappointing, because Romania is wasting a lot of opportunities, in industry and tourism, that a better transport infrastructure (I don't even want to start discussing about trains...) would bring
That is agreed. But, while we are here, let's not forget that Transfagarasan upgrade - which created a hysterical reaction here - can only boost tourism in Romania and enhance opportunities in Fagaras mountains which do not have adequate accommodation facilities.

Quote:
But Le Clerk, with how you present some statements as facts, I could only get the impression that you are, in disguise, the spokesperson of the transport ministry... Otherwise one would take such info with a grain of salt, and not always use the "difficult terrain" as a pretext to explain all the delays...
This is insulting to me. Those who know me on the Romanian forum also know I am one of the most vocal opponent of this government. I also spent days in a row in biting cold this winter in front of the government to protest anti-justice laws - if that counts in. Successfully ! As opposed to Poland. But let's not divagate ... I couldn't possibly be fit for the job.


Quote:
However, yes, I made a mistake with 2022 vs 2020, projects need to end "just" at the end of 2022 (but afaik they need to be started before 2020).
All the projects above will be started before 2020, maybe with some small exceptions. And it is well probable that by 2022 there are enough projects on TEN T completed so that 100% of EU funds or more will be drawn by Romania.

As I expected and tried to underline a few times, the 2020 deadline is not so 2020 deadline and the fuss is not warranted actually. I also checked the regulations and there is no legal impediment for pushing funding beyond 2020, as experience already shown for the previous financial cycle.

Quote:
For huge projects such as Pitesti-Sibiu, this seems very little time, judging from how long it takes to get a motorway approved and built in the easier terrain in Romania..
Pitesti-Sibiu will not be completed by 2022 (as I reiterated here a few times - nor Comarnic-Brasov), but sections 1 and 5 have chances to be completed. These will be eligible for EU funding along with the other projects, which will top even more the current EU funding. There rest os the lots will be completed and funded in the coming EU financial season, and the EU has all interest to fund that.

However, I agree that Romania does not have a focus on infrastructure, and the concern here is warranted. There is simply no priority for this government or any other government on infrastructure. Everything is made to match the EU funds, if even that, and no other effort is put into that, even though the demand for infrastructure is times more than what the EU covers financially. I am also personally frustrated by that because Romania is put behind by the fact that infrastructure is simply not important for politics in a country that needs it badly.
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Last edited by Le Clerk; October 23rd, 2017 at 11:46 PM.
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Old October 24th, 2017, 12:15 AM   #9631
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^ Can I summarize? "Please take my statements as solid facts. I have 35,214 posts on this forum. Any argument you (or anyone else) bring(s) is trolling. The fact that you (or anyone else) don't see any major road development in my country is because you're either blind or ill intended. Trust me, I have 35,214 posts on this forum."
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Old October 24th, 2017, 01:30 AM   #9632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nenea_hartia View Post
^ Can I summarize? "Please take my statements as solid facts. I have 35,214 posts on this forum.
Thereby drowning out the many sensible posters from and around Romania with sheer volume.

I see Romania fired the Transport and EU Funding ministers and replaced them with new ones in the last few days. This is a tediously regular habit in Romania which must have had a change of Transport minister every 9 months on average since 2010.

No wonder nothing gets done.
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Old October 24th, 2017, 11:18 AM   #9633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nenea_hartia View Post
^ Can I summarize? "Please take my statements as solid facts. I have 35,214 posts on this forum. Any argument you (or anyone else) bring(s) is trolling. The fact that you (or anyone else) don't see any major road development in my country is because you're either blind or ill intended. Trust me, I have 35,214 posts on this forum."
q.e.d.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
....

I do not think we'll be able to build 2700 km of motorway in 10 years, but I would be ready to bet some money on 2000 km to be built by 2020. Hopefully.
we do not have 2000 km as I was too busy posting new messages.





... sorry guys :-) I could not resist it
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Old October 24th, 2017, 12:33 PM   #9634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
I see Romania fired the Transport and EU Funding ministers and replaced them with new ones in the last few days. This is a tediously regular habit in Romania which must have had a change of Transport minister every 9 months on average since 2010.

No wonder nothing gets done.
The "hall of shame" for the roughly last 5,5 years.

Code:
Alexandru Nazare	Feb 09 2012	May 07 2012	88 days
Ovidiu Silaghi		May 07 2012	Dec 21 2012	228 days
Relu Fenechiu		Dec 21 2012	Aug 26 2013	248 days
Ramona Mănescu		Aug 26 2013	Mar 05 2014	191 days
Dan Sova		Mar 05 2014	Jun 24 2014	111 days
Ioan Rus		Jun 24 2014	Jul 16 2015	1 year 22 days
Iulian Matache		Jul 16 2015	Nov 17 2015	124 days
Dan Marian Costescu	Nov 17 2015	Jul 07 2016	233 days
Petru Sorin Buşe	Jul 07 2016	Jan 04 2017	181 days
Alexandru Răzvan Cuc	Jan 04 2017	Oct 17 2017	293 days
10 Ministers, so the average duration in office is <7 months, with only one lasting more than 1 year (and that just about..)
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Old October 24th, 2017, 12:40 PM   #9635
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7 months! and every single one of them had a new 'plan' that was immediately touted in here as somehow being 'definitive', by Le Clerk.
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Old October 24th, 2017, 01:30 PM   #9636
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
...

All the projects above will be started before 2020, maybe with some small exceptions. And it is well probable that by 2022 there are enough projects on TEN T completed so that 100% of EU funds or more will be drawn by Romania.

As I expected and tried to underline a few times, the 2020 deadline is not so 2020 deadline and the fuss is not warranted actually. I also checked the regulations and there is no legal impediment for pushing funding beyond 2020, as experience already shown for the previous financial cycle.

Pitesti-Sibiu will not be completed by 2022 (as I reiterated here a few times - nor Comarnic-Brasov), but sections 1 and 5 have chances to be completed. These will be eligible for EU funding along with the other projects, which will top even more the current EU funding. There rest os the lots will be completed and funded in the coming EU financial season, and the EU has all interest to fund that.

I am still curious where this certainty comes from, that by 2022 so much will be completed.. ?

As an example, e.g. for A10 Lots 1 & 2, contracts were signed almost 3 years ago. Completion is currently difficult to estimate (one lot still doesn't have the construction permit for a motorway to motorway interchange!), but some sources estimate it to be in 1-2 years, that would mean 4-5 years after signing of the contract.
A10 is not totally flat, has bridges bridges and some cuttings, but it is also not difficult.

A1 Deva-Lugoj is even worse, contracts were signed in August 2013, and besides a 15 km segment in the plains, nothing is finished; most sections will have thus have a completion >=5 years since contract signing.

So if that speed is any indication of future projects, you should have contracts signed now to be able to have a chance for them to be completed by 2022.


Sibiu-Pitesti Sections 1 & 5 are surely easier than the middle sections, maybe they are comparable to the currently under construction A1 & A10 sections. But they are yet at a stage where the tender submission closes in the next days (if not postponed), so according to past experiences, it might take well a further year until contracts are signed (evaluation procedure, complaints, etc..). These segments are tendered on a supposedly very weak geo study, in design & build, so problems & delays are likely to be expected, so I wouldn't bet too much money on a completion by 2022.


But to see how much the EU funds for currently under construction segments would already be, let's try to do the math:

- Costs for things running under construction:

-- A10 has a total volume of 1.981 billion LEI, 85% funding
-- A1 Lugoj-Deva Lots 2, 3 + 4 a total of 1.562 billion LEI, 85% funding
-- A3 Targu Mures - Câmpia Turzii, a total of 1.204 billion LEI, not sure on the funding rate here

How much of that will be eligible in this funding cycle, I don't know, as I don't know how much of that has been settled in the first phase of each project (2007-2013 funding cycle, ending 2015). A chunk of A1 Lot 2 (the one with the tunnels) will also not be ready by 2022.

I'm also not sure what is the total available funds, maybe someone else has data on that?
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Old October 24th, 2017, 02:22 PM   #9637
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudiwien View Post
The "hall of shame" for the roughly last 5,5 years.

10 Ministers, so the average duration in office is <7 months, with only one lasting more than 1 year (and that just about..)
It looks that, since the fall of communism, only three times it happened that a minister of transportation managed to remain in office for two years or more.

In the past 151 years, only 7 ministers of transportation managed to remain in office for four years or more.

See list.

Last edited by sułły; October 24th, 2017 at 02:32 PM.
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Old October 24th, 2017, 03:02 PM   #9638
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So if that speed is any indication of future projects, you should have contracts signed now to be able to have a chance for them to be completed by 2022.

Correct, especially mountain roads which get 4 year builds unlike dead flat roads which get as little as 2.

Apropos...money as you asked.

Total available EU funds to RO is €36bn across the funding period ('2014'to 2021 or 2022)

Of which €12bn is for large network projects like Motorways/Rail/Energy Grid

And that €12bn is 1/6 of all EU funds available in that period for that class of project anywhere in the EU if Romania would get the finger out that is. Its not like the EU is being mean or anything.

You will find a list of Cohesion projects here. > http://www.fonduri-ue.ro/poim-2014

Romania and Bulgaria had a habit of say asking for money to build an A1 between 2007 and 2013 and then saying...'we want to spend that money on an A2 instead' . They were told not to do this any more from 2014 and that list contains all EU fundable roads apart from the A1.

The A1 is a Core EU Corridor and will be funded from the Connecting Europe fund...so it may not appear on the lists in the above link.

I spent a lot of time telling Le Clerk about the difference between Ten-T Core and Ten-T comprehensive and I was never quite sure that they ever understood or cared after all that.

The A1 will be fundable after 2020 as it is the biggest missing link on any core corridor in Europe...but will it be fundable at 85% like now ? and 85% funding was greater pre 2014 as you could claim 85% + VAT....meaning over 100% of the cost in some cases.

Another weakness is that some clown might have estimated 50km of mountain motorway at €10m a km in 2014, the EU agrees to grant 85% of €10m x 50 or €425m in that example and the bids come in at €20m a km in 2018. The EU will still cap the funding at €425m in that example and will not go higher.

This is why most countries tender early before inflation eats into the value of the 85% that is agreed and they get a contractor locked in at those prices.
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Old October 24th, 2017, 03:57 PM   #9639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudiwien View Post
The "hall of shame" for the roughly last 5,5 years.

Code:
Alexandru Nazare	Feb 09 2012	May 07 2012	88 days
Ovidiu Silaghi		May 07 2012	Dec 21 2012	228 days
Relu Fenechiu		Dec 21 2012	Aug 26 2013	248 days
Ramona Mănescu		Aug 26 2013	Mar 05 2014	191 days
Dan Sova		Mar 05 2014	Jun 24 2014	111 days
Ioan Rus		Jun 24 2014	Jul 16 2015	1 year 22 days
Iulian Matache		Jul 16 2015	Nov 17 2015	124 days
Dan Marian Costescu	Nov 17 2015	Jul 07 2016	233 days
Petru Sorin Buşe	Jul 07 2016	Jan 04 2017	181 days
Alexandru Răzvan Cuc	Jan 04 2017	Oct 17 2017	293 days
10 Ministers, so the average duration in office is <7 months, with only one lasting more than 1 year (and that just about..)
That happened in the Czech Republic as well. ŘSD had 5 directors between 2009 and 2014, the ministry had 9 ministers in that timespan.

And guess what, they opened very few motorways compared to their planned network and some other countries in the region. Over 4 years, most of their scheduled construction was delayed by 5 years (or more).
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Old October 24th, 2017, 09:32 PM   #9640
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What is the reason for such often replacments in Minstry of tranposrtation in Romania? It's not like ruling party is changing every few months?
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