Big Ten Looking Again for 12th Member?

[Sam_Harmon]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/colle...xpansion_N.htm

I don't like the idea of taking on another team just to attempt and prop up this sports network. I hope the presidents put an end to it.

OTOH, who should that team be? Pitt would be a perfect fit: strong academics (USN&WR top 60 and an AAU member), strong football and basketball programs and would give Penn State a natural rivalry. From the quotes in the above article, it, however, appears as though they're specifically looking outside the existing B10 region with an eye to adding television viewers.

[edsg25]

it's a horse beaten to death. it ain't going to happen. neither side will make an overture to the other. too many are convinced that it would not be in their best interest to join. the issue has been settled.

and yet still I say: NOTRE DAME SHOULD JOIN THE BIG TEN.

It is the most far sighted decision they could make. At some point the luck of the Irish might run out if college football truly gets centered around a conference set up. And if so, the opportunity to joint the only right conference, the Big Ten, would be lost.

Nobody offers ND what the Big Ten does:

• the only conference in ND's back yard

• a most traditional conference with a most traditonal university

• long standing rivalries: Purdue and MSU every year. Michigan many years, particularly recently. Northwestern for many, many years. Prime match ups with Ohio State. Big games vs. Penn State. IU, although basically unplayed, instate. Illini-Irish for the Chicago fan.

• similiar high academic standards and CIC membership

Pipe dream? Sure. But IMHO very much in the best interest of both the B10 and ND

[Sam_Harmon]

Originally Posted by edsg25

it's a horse beaten to death. it ain't going to happen. neither side will make an overture to the other. too many are convinced that it would not be in their best interest to join. the issue has been settled.

and yet still I say: NOTRE DAME SHOULD JOIN THE BIG TEN.

It is the most far sighted decision they could make. At some point the luck of the Irish might run out if college football truly gets centered around a conference set up. And if so, the opportunity to joint the only right conference, the Big Ten, would be lost.

Nobody offers ND what the Big Ten does:

• the only conference in ND's back yard

• a most traditional conference with a most traditonal university

• long standing rivalries: Purdue and MSU every year. Michigan many years, particularly recently. Northwestern for many, many years. Prime match ups with Ohio State. Big games vs. Penn State. IU, although basically unplayed, instate. Illini-Irish for the Chicago fan.

• similiar high academic standards and CIC membership

Pipe dream? Sure. But IMHO very much in the best interest of both the B10 and ND

On paper, I agree. I'll just never forgive the mind-numbing hypocrisy when the priests stood behind that podium and said that they were turning down the B10 for academic reasons--never mind that their own faculty senate voted 34-2 in favor of joining, never mind that they would have been the only non-AAU B10 member, never mind that (undergraduate reputation not withstanding) they would have ranked at the bottom of the CIC for graduate programs, research and faculty. They made the decision based on what was best for the football program, but didn't have the courage or decency to be truthful about it. Can you imagine the howls from the domers had a Big Ten school made a similar tail wagging the dog decision?

I also think that decision will come back to bite them in the ass, and I want to be around to laugh at their demise when that does happen. They might make a good MAC school. Hell, they'd make a natural rival for Miami of Ohio--two overgrown boarding schools with delusions of academic grandeur.

[haldcottingham]

I was thinking Akron or Kent or even IUPUI or whatever it's called

Obviously Notre Dame would be the natural choice. But they aren't going anywhere. They make far too much money to be in a conference. I hate them for it. But at the same time, I envy them for it.

[ColDayMan]

I'm telling you, West Virginia!

No, honestly, it should be Syarcuse. Think about it, New York is the only state on the Great Lakes that does not have a Big 10 school. Add on Syracuse and BAM!

[Shimmy]

Syracuse can't win a game in the Big East. Sure, the Big East has the powers of West Virginia and Louisville(and I guess Rutgers now), but can you imagine what would happen to them facing Michigan, Ohio State, Iowa? Besides, Syracuse is a basketball school, and the Big East is the best basketball conference in the country.

[Sam_Harmon]

If they wanted to make the commitment to big time sports--and real football--the University of Toronto would be an outstanding fit geographically and academically.

The presidents and faculties have made it clear that ND is the only school for which they'd waive the AAU requirement, which leaves out WVU and Loouisville. Seeing as Pitt does nothing for the tv market, I like Syracuse far better than Rutgers. Even though Rutgers is "hot" right now, they don't have nearly the tradition or stability in their program that Syracuse does, and I think Syracuse would eventually be just as beneficial in the NYC television market as Rutgers.

Looking west (Missouri most frequently mentioned) makes no sense at all. Now Texas is a perfect fit for the Big Ten by every criteria except georgraphy. I've always viewed Texas as a Big Ten school stuck in Big 12 land.

[herodotus]

Pitt has neither the support or the resources to compete well in the Big 10. Neither does Syracuse. Rutgers is a big state school that would fit well in that league. Now that they seem to have gotten their football program together, I think the Big 10 will seriously look at them.

[Whosville]

Mizzou makes the most sense. I know their athletic programs are not the best right now, but they bring 2 decent markets in Saint Louis and Kansas City. That is no small change and the Big 10 Network knows it. Also, they very much fit the Big 10 footprint, whereas Syracuse does not. Including Penn State made no sense to me, adding a New York school would make even less sense. There would be no natural rivals and how many people in NY City name Syracuse as their primary university loyalty? I don't think Syracuse would make the cut anyway. Their academics are not that good and they only have one team that matters, basketball, and even that team is not the best and would be a mid-tier Big 10 school.

I agree Texas is the most Big 10esque, non-Big 10 school, followed by Florida and Cal. I guess if they wanted to get really wild they could add one of those teams. I am sure both Texas and Florida would not mind getting out of the Big 12 or the SEC.

I would not discount Louisville, however. I know they are not the strongest academic school, but the Big 10 is an athletic conference and no one spends more on athletics than Louisville and although they are not a school named after the state, they have an urban market with absolutely no rivals. Heck Louisville is even building a new arena just for the university's teams. Although Ohio State is the primary state school for Ohio, their relationship with Columbus reminds me a lot of the University of Louisville's relationship with Louisville.

[Sam_Harmon]

Originally Posted by Whosville

Mizzou makes the most sense. I know their athletic programs are not the best right now, but they bring 2 decent markets in Saint Louis and Kansas City. That is no small change and the Big 10 Network knows it. Also, they very much fit the Big 10 footprint, whereas Syracuse does not. Including Penn State made no sense to me, adding a New York school would make even less sense. There would be no natural rivals and how many people in NY City name Syracuse as their primary university loyalty? I don't think Syracuse would make the cut anyway. Their academics are not that good and they only have one team that matters, basketball, and even that team is not the best and would be a mid-tier Big 10 school.

I would not discount Louisville, however. I know they are not the strongest academic school, but the Big 10 is an athletic conference and no one spends more on athletics than Louisville and although they are not a school named after the state, they have an urban market with absolutely no rivals. Heck Louisville is even building a new arena just for the university's teams. Although Ohio State is the primary state school for Ohio, their relationship with Columbus reminds me a lot of the University of Louisville's relationship with Louisville.

Unless you've lived in Ohio, it's hard to understand the degree to which Ohio State resonantes throughout every county in the state with the exception of Cincinnati. I can guarantee you that Louisville does not have that same cultural dominance throughout Kentucky. Also, they're not an AAU school. The Big Ten is also an academic consortium (the CIC) of the B10 schools and Chicago, all of whom are AAU members. The presidents and faculties are on record as saying that Notre Dame is the only non-AAU school that they'd let in.

Missouri is an AAU member as is Syracuse. I'm not certain but pretty sure that Syracuse generally ranks higher than Missouri for undergraduate. I have no idea how they stack up for grad, research and faculty.

[Skyking2]

Originally Posted by Shimmy

Syracuse can't win a game in the Big East. Sure, the Big East has the powers of West Virginia and Louisville(and I guess Rutgers now), but can you imagine what would happen to them facing Michigan, Ohio State, Iowa? Besides, Syracuse is a basketball school, and the Big East is the best basketball conference in the country.

Iowa? Get real. I would've given you a break if you said Wisconsin. After all, the Badgers have been the other dominant team in the Big 10/11 besides Michigan and Ohio State. The Hawks are ok, but thay ain't Wisconsin the last 10 years or so!

[edsg25]

Originally Posted by Sam_Harmon

Now Texas is a perfect fit for the Big Ten by every criteria except georgraphy. I've always viewed Texas as a Big Ten school stuck in Big 12 land.

Sam, could you really imagine Texas going anywhere without A&M? And after finally getting into the same conference with OU, adding new meaning to their annual game, do you think they'd want to give up that common affiliation, too?

[Sam_Harmon]

Originally Posted by edsg25

Sam, could you really imagine Texas going anywhere without A&M? And after finally getting into the same conference with OU, adding new meaning to their annual game, do you think they'd want to give up that common affiliation, too?

Not saying that it could (or should) ever happen. Just noting that they are almost a stereotypical Big Ten school.

[Skyking2]

If it's not Notre Dame, why bother? The Irish do well wo a conference, but they'd get their ass kicked in the Big Ten, anyway. So, let's let them slide. (PS. Irish football isn't close to what it used to be -- who's kidding who?) Look what had happened to Penn State since they joined. Geographically-speaking, the Big Ten is losing some of its regional punch if they keep spreading out too far. I think Iowa State makes as much sense as anything further East. Missouri, even Louisville, make more sense than adding Syracuse for crying out loud. Pitt? Maybe. Being in Pittsburgh, they're actually closer to the original Big Ten territory than Penn State.

[edsg25]

From an athletic/academic/reputation/best fit perspective, let's go in this order:

1. Notre Dame
2. Missouri
3. Rutgers

Less realistically
4. Pitt
5. Syracuse
6. West Virginia
7. Iowa State

My dream (actually impossible dream since it could never happen):

Penn State goes to the Big East or some other conference to give the Big Ten a total midwestern representation again. Notre Dame joins along with (and here's the mission impossible part) former B10 member Chicago which returns its athletic program back to the big time.

The new Big Dozen thus consists of Chicago, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, Michigan State, Minnesota, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Purdue, and Wisconsin.

Oh, yea: no divisions and 11 team round robin schedule.

Hey, I can dream can I?

[xzmattzx]

Adding Rutgers to a Midwest conference makes as little sense geographically as adding Boston College to the ACC. Other than being close to Penn State, Rutgers does not fit in to the Big Ten. At least they're close to one school, though; Boston College is around 400 miles from it's nearest conference opponent.

[Whosville]

Undergrad, Law School

Mizzou: 88, 66

Syracuse: 52, Tier 3

Louisville: NR, 97

Pittsburgh: 57, 57

Notre Dame: 20, 28


Here are the top contenders US News Rankings for Undergrad and Law School, which is usually a pretty good measurement of the strength of your graduate schools (plus, Syracuse does not have a Med School - concerning). As you can see, Notre Dame is at the top in each, Pitt is next, Mizzou is very much in the middle and then you have Syracuse with a nice undergrad program and Louisville with stronger graduate programs, although still not on the level of Notre Dame, Pitt & Mizzou. The Syracuse case is a little unique in that it has a high undergrad rating but low graduate ratings (I checked a couple of other graduate programs and Syracuse was never on the lists, plus no Med or Vet school).

I think the reason for this is that they are a private school with less than 20,000 students. Compared to Ohio State with over 50,000 students, this looks a little pale. Of course this is more than Northwestern with around 13,000 students, but the next closest Big Ten school is Iowa with around 30,000 students and most of the Big Ten schools are in the 40,000 range. Plus, Syracuse is no Northwestern - not even close. That is a major obstacle for Syracuse because they do not fit the Big 10 mold. Just so you know, Mizzou has @ 28,000, Pitt has @ 27,000, Rutgers has around @50,000, and Louisville has @ 22,000.

Syracuse has a high undergrad ranking, but that is deceptive because Syracuse does not seem to be engaging in the kind of research that Big 10 schools engage in. Syracuse has the same Carnegie Ranking as Southern Illinois (my alma mater) at RU/H (research university/high). All the rest of the Big 10 are RU/VH (very high). There is nothing wrong with the RU/H ranking, but just as someone would not confuse Southern Illinois with a Big 10 school, we also probably should not be considering Syracuse in that same vein. Syracuse may be an AAU school, but from my perspective they do not deserve it and are lucky to have it.

If this becomes an academics battle, Syracuse loses.

[Shimmy]

Originally Posted by Skyking2

Iowa? Get real. I would've given you a break if you said Wisconsin. After all, the Badgers have been the other dominant team in the Big 10/11 besides Michigan and Ohio State. The Hawks are ok, but thay ain't Wisconsin the last 10 years or so!

Yeah, I forgot about Wisconsin going 12-1 last year and Iowa having an off year, but Iowa has been a power the prior few years.

What's this Texas, Florida stuff? Those two aren't going nowhere. Especially Florida out of the SEC. All of their rivals are in the SEC with the exception of Florida State, and they've won 2 basketball and a football national championship in the last two years. Texas won the BCS championship two years ago and are always a contender. The Big Ten is a great conference but to put it that far above the SEC or Big XII is just ridiculous.

[Sam_Harmon]

Thanks Whosville. That definately makes Mizzou's academic case a lot stronger than I considered it. I still think Pitt is the best fit, but since this is all about television sets, they're screwed.

I do think that law school ranking is deceptive in ND's case and doesn't reflect their graduate/research programs as a whole. I know that they have few top tier doctoral programs, so-so faculty quality indicators (National Academies members/Guggenheim Fellows etc.), don't bring in large research dollars and are not AAU members, which is why their faculty wanted so badly to join the Big Ten and get access to the CIC.

[Sam_Harmon]

Originally Posted by Shimmy

What's this Texas, Florida stuff? Those two aren't going nowhere. Especially Florida out of the SEC. All of their rivals are in the SEC with the exception of Florida State, and they've won 2 basketball and a football national championship in the last two years. Texas won the BCS championship two years ago and are always a contender. The Big Ten is a great conference but to put it that far above the SEC or Big XII is just ridiculous.

Nobody sees them as likely candidates for Big Ten expansion. Some of us were simply musing about what schools around the country fit, were it not for geography, the B10 mold culturally and academically. I'd say Texas, UCLA, Cal and Washington, to which someone added Florida.