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Old November 13th, 2013, 11:12 PM   #1001
El_Greco
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You're missing the point. For city to stay competitive it needs to attract all sorts of people and not just the rich. People on low and mid incomes contribute greatly to the economy and to get them you need to offer incentives - affordability of housing is one of them. Turning entire districts into Gucci ghettoes and shipping the rest to the edges is asking for trouble in the long term.
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Old November 14th, 2013, 02:13 AM   #1002
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I wouldn't mind if rich people didn't have a place to live. And, yeah, Berlin better be careful. Pricing out workers is a good recipe for suburban sprawl.
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Old November 14th, 2013, 03:08 PM   #1003
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Rathenower Streat 14 district Moabit







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Old November 14th, 2013, 04:22 PM   #1004
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Lehter Urban- /Cityquarter Europacity / Europe City - Development Area

In the north of Berlins new Mainstation there is a big development area called Europacity / Europecity or Lehrterstadtquartier / Lehrter urban quarter.

There the Groth-Gruppe /Groth-Group wants to build a new quarter @ the Lehrter Straße:





The hole development area:



More about this development area in the german SSC-Thread:

"Berlin | Europacity / Lehrter Stadtquartier / Masterplan Heidestraße (nördl. Minna-Cauer-Str.) "
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Old November 14th, 2013, 05:56 PM   #1005
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Flankenschanze - Hohenzollernring 14 - district Spandau









Source, © and more information: http://besa-berlin.de/
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Old November 14th, 2013, 08:17 PM   #1006
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I wonder if these forumers complaining about "sprawl" or housing shortages in Berlin have any idea of how the housing market works out there.

Berlin is, by far and large, the Western European capital with lowest costs of housing. And, contrary to other places that got recently a bit cheap like Lisboa or Reykjavik, it is not due to a massive economic crisis.

There is a glut, especially on eastern parts of the city, of old commieblocks that are underutilized and many still empty, because rents that could be extracted from there wouldn't be enough to pay even for decent upkeep of modern housing. Högenschonsausen and nearby areas have many empty whole blocks that are salted for renovation. And these areas with cheaper housing are reasonably connected to central areas with S-Bahn or MetroTram. These areas have actually taller buildings in average than areas closer to the city center.

The issue at hand is this: renovation doesn't come cheap. Construction costs in Germany are not as high as in UK or Italy, but they are considerable still. There is no shortage of housing in Berlin, there is no rampant sprawl outside the city limits. So you can only have private-financed renovation projects if they are catering to the upper half of the rent/property market. It is difficult to make money in Berlin developing, say, your standard cheap-ish studio building and hoping to rent it out in any profitable way - the market prices are too low to make it viable.

Now, if there is no housing shortage, and Berlin has a lot of debt and other non-housing projects to work on, why would it make any sense to blow away money on affordable housing when the city already has, naturally, plenty of it? It would be an absurdity.

Now, a cautionary tale: when people complain about "hyper-gentrification" of Berlin and go "OMG nobody can live here anymore" they are usually referring to small pockets of uber-hipped areas like Kreuzberg or Prenzlauer-Berg that were former (semi)-abandoned neighborhoods up to 1989, then got all famous for the odd population that moved there, and now can't afford it any longer. But even if we are generous with definition of which areas are "hyper-gentrifying" in Berlin, we would come with what - 5% of the city area if so?

So there will be plenty of areas for people with lower incomes to look at housing. They are already well served by public transportation. They won't be on very specific neighborhoods that became world-famous and known by name worldwide.

Finally, if the city wants to keep itself viable on the long term with an economy that isn't entirely dependent on retirees, public employees and broke students/youngsters, it needs to keep attracting other demographics (like the whole tech business arriving there) and these people won't live in old crappy commieblocks covered with graffiti, bad heating and lousy noise protection.
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Old November 14th, 2013, 08:53 PM   #1007
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Quote:
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Högenschonsausen and nearby areas
I must have missed something
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Old November 14th, 2013, 09:06 PM   #1008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
if the city wants to keep itself viable on the long term with an economy that isn't entirely dependent on retirees, public employees and broke students/youngsters, it needs to keep attracting other demographics (like the whole tech business arriving there) and these people won't live in old crappy commieblocks covered with graffiti, bad heating and lousy noise protection.
What you need is balance. Poor city is no good but neither is one where anyone that ain't a millionaire is pushed to the edges.

Note I'm not talking specifically about Berlin, but rather generally, as in Europe it has become something of a trend to turn entire districts into rich ghettoes.
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Old November 14th, 2013, 10:00 PM   #1009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
What you need is balance. Poor city is no good but neither is one where anyone that ain't a millionaire is pushed to the edges.

Note I'm not talking specifically about Berlin, but rather generally, as in Europe it has become something of a trend to turn entire districts into rich ghettoes.
As long as there are good transportation links to other neighborhoods were the non-rich live at, what is the problem with "rich ghettoes"?

In the case of Berlin, the poorer area is central-ish, not the most far flung. The outer areas like Grundewald and Wanssee are rather higher income.

What is bad about having a few districts where prices are high throughout? It is not like every block needs to have its share of low-income people living within. Especially in a place like Berlin with good transportation infrastructure.
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Old November 14th, 2013, 10:31 PM   #1010
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I may be wrong but it looks to me that Berlin is going the way of other European cities - where city centre has become an exclusive preserve of the rich. For city to stay viable it needs to attract all sorts of people. Balance is a must. Otherwise you're headed for trouble.
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Old November 15th, 2013, 06:11 PM   #1011
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I wonder how many would like to live in Suburbanist's city? Looks like Plan Voisin, and it's only for the rich
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Old November 15th, 2013, 06:23 PM   #1012
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Quote:
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I wonder how many would like to live in Suburbanist's city? Looks like Plan Voisin, and it's only for the rich
No, it doesn't have to be only for the rich, but people should live according to their income in different areas they can afford. We don't need poor people living in the city center as some sort of props or ode to social diversity (which is the impression I get when I read, in my still limited German-reading abilities, criticism of the gentrification of Kreuzberg, Friedschain and Prenzlauer-Berg), as in "your city is not cool if you don't have visible poor people living in the most famous neighborhoods".

I get the impression (not only from Berlin) that a significant part of the planning community/blogosphere thinks there are merits on having a lot of complex regulations, laws and mechanisms just to keep a "The Sims" appearance on its most famous areas so that the "right" mix of "broke but edgy" students, artists, professional with money-but-an-open-mind, the occasional exotic immigrant etc. are present to pay homage to whatever sociological view fosters this perception (that rich people, well-paid professionals, "boring" families with kids and other major demographic groups are somehow detrimental to the "unique vibe" of a place).

This all being said, there are some interesting projects U/C in Berlin, I like this thread for that. If you look into other European capitals, no other capital in Western Europe has anywhere as much new construction as Berlin.

The only two things I miss: something > 300m for Berlin. Something at least as tall as the Fernsehtrum and some high-rise cluster somewhere out there, only with modern buildings, to be a hub for the emerging high-tech industry of Berlin (the disused Tempelhof airport is just THE perfect place for an array of new buildings).
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Old November 15th, 2013, 06:36 PM   #1013
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^ Your first two par. are well put, couldn't agree more. The socio-romanticism is ridiculous. Urban development and shifts of "trendy" areas always go hand in hand, anywhere in the world. It's not like any city could ever live in a bubble and freeze time, not even Berlin.

Quote:
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If you look into other European capitals, no other capital in Western Europe has anywhere as much new construction as Berlin.
True, except for the prime real estate market of London perhaps (that's just a guts feeling thou).

Quote:
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The only two things I miss: something > 300m for Berlin. Something at least as tall as the Fernsehtrum and some high-rise cluster somewhere out there, only with modern buildings, to be a hub for the emerging high-tech industry of Berlin (the disused Tempelhof airport is just THE perfect place for an array of new buildings).
Well, give Berlin the time it needs. It's about to get all its remaining empty central lots filled. If this process comes to an end, the city is really getting tall.

First signs of this development show up in the City West. It might be getting really bold there very soon. http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...#post100239026


http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/um...t/7779844.html
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Old November 15th, 2013, 08:05 PM   #1014
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Quote:
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as in "your city is not cool if you don't have visible poor people living in the most famous neighborhoods".
Except noone said that. What people object to is city centre becoming an exclusive preserve of the rich and where anyone that isn't a celebrity, millionaire, oligarch or oil tycoon gets shipped off to the edges. A white flight in reverse. It's bad for city and bad for society. The last thing we need is build Elysium.

There's nothing wrong with students and edginess either. It is the mix of cultures that make living in cities interesting and exciting. If city was a sterile machine where people just work and sleep it would be nothing short of a nightmare. Indeed the very fact that 'alternative' areas are so popular and attract such creativity speaks volumes.
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Old November 15th, 2013, 08:54 PM   #1015
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Daniel Libeskind Chausseestraße Ecke Schwartzkopfstraße

The Minerva Immobilien gonna realise this project here at Chausseestraße / Schwartzkopfstraße.



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Old November 15th, 2013, 09:08 PM   #1016
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Quote:
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Except noone said that. What people object to is city centre becoming an exclusive preserve of the rich and where anyone that isn't a celebrity, millionaire, oligarch or oil tycoon gets shipped off to the edges. A white flight in reverse. It's bad for city and bad for society. The last thing we need is build Elysium.

There's nothing wrong with students and edginess either. It is the mix of cultures that make living in cities interesting and exciting. If city was a sterile machine where people just work and sleep it would be nothing short of a nightmare. Indeed the very fact that 'alternative' areas are so popular and attract such creativity speaks volumes.
I think your views are very London-centric, where prices are high throughout the Greater London Area to the point many people commute from far cities 80, 100km away everyday due to expensive housing that is non-cramped/non-council estate.

Berlin doesn't suffer from that problem. There are plenty of affordable areas within a much smaller radius (say, 20km), most very well served by S-Bahn, U-Bahn, trams or a combination of those (allowing access to the Mitte in less than 40 minutes, a very reasonable commute).

I'm not saying anything against students or poor-but-creative people, just that they don't need to be cocooned and reserved prime real estate space on the most sought-after parts of a city, as long as they have other areas of lower housing costs to live with good transportation to where they want to go. Which they certainly have in Berlin!

For tax reasons, it is also more difficult to buy holiday/temporary homes in Berlin than it is in London.

Public transportation in Berlin is more comprehensive and much cheaper than in London, meaning it is less of a financial burden to live 10km away from your university and travel everyday.

You can't reduce a city to its central areas only, and then make judgments on it based on how diverse a small central area is.

The problem in Berlin is that a group of over-entitled people think they have some sort of claiming rights to famous districts as a sort of "territorial reservation for non-conventional people" where everyone else that is not eccentric, unusual or underground enough should be allowed to live "because they have the rest of Berlin to themselves" (like that infamous gegen-Schawben campain). It is a very small cohort of strange people, but they are very vocal and misrepresent the reality of the city, just because the abandoned communist factory on the banks of the spree they squatted is being turned into luxury condos they can't afford, while they could EASILY live in decent flats 3 S-Bahn stops (less than 15min) away.

I think that during the dark days of Berlin history as a divided city, it (Western Berlin) became a sort of magnet for young escapists and eccentrics in general. I bet life was not exactly easy in West Berlin, there were many issues that precluded a functioning normal economy there, Wall notwithstanding. So it kinda attracted people who wanted to call it home in some unconventional place, and now, 20 years after the "mainstreazinization" of Berlin as a city and European capital there are still some growing pains as Berlin cannot be, work or develop the place it was while there was a wall over the place.
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Old November 15th, 2013, 09:15 PM   #1017
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there is something going on in the capital! great news.
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Old November 16th, 2013, 01:16 PM   #1018
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here in bether quali again...



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Old November 16th, 2013, 01:29 PM   #1019
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Nice project. I like the way Libeskind works with volumes and tridimensional tricks that make his buildings look uneven.

Do you know if any other major starchitect is currently involved in any other project in Berlin?
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Old November 16th, 2013, 01:32 PM   #1020
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"Axel Springer Media Campus"... "Bjarke Ingels, Rem Koolhaas (OMA), Kuehn Malvezzi, SANAA and Ole Scheeren"

Hines highrise @ Alexander Platz maybe too...

depence, what kind of major starchitects you mean
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