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Old December 4th, 2013, 05:06 PM   #1101
hateman
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I'm not saying anything. It looks nice all of it. But looks like XIX century. We have 2013 why they're going to build that? I mean it is a little cheap and funny.
Always these questions. You answered it partly: "It looks nice." But more importantly, it's a way of regaining cultural patrimony, a sense of place, a sense of history, a sense of who they are as a people.

On the other hand there are people and places who demand that their architecture innovate. How this is any less cheap or funny, or even provincial and misguided is beyond me. One group is trying to capture the past, another group is trying to capture the future.

Disneyland has a Future World, too.
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Old December 4th, 2013, 05:22 PM   #1102
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Too often in the 21st century the residential architecture is either some cheap McMansion or tiny-windowed tower with random cladding. I think Berlin is going down the right way with its smart mid-rises.
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Old December 4th, 2013, 05:26 PM   #1103
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19th century architecture has stood the test of time. The same can't really be said about a lot of the stuff built between the 1920s and 70s.
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Old December 4th, 2013, 06:02 PM   #1104
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19th century architecture has stood the test of time. The same can't really be said about a lot of the stuff built between the 1920s and 70s.
It is not like that. Most cities were rather small before mass industrialization drove many peasants and farmers to expansion areas in cities. So whatever architecture was in vogue at the time became the dominant style on cities that boomed during the 2nd Industrial revolution like Berlin, which sort-of peaked in the 1920s in that aspect.

If you go to a place that peaked much earlier like Venice (Italy), you will see that dominant style is that of 17th Century pallazzi.
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Old December 4th, 2013, 06:03 PM   #1105
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On the other hand there are people and places who demand that their architecture innovate. How this is any less cheap or funny, or even provincial and misguided is beyond me. One group is trying to capture the past, another group is trying to capture the future.
It is better to be bold and try to shape the future than live in a perpetual state of nostalgia longing for times (and architecture typical of times) people weren't born to have experienced first hand. It is a riskier proposition, as certain styles might fall out of fashion soon, but at least you can say you tried. One can never fault mid-20th Century architects for trying very hard to do that, with varying degrees of long-term success. They were not afraid of the future, they embraced and gambled on it with revolutionary concepts (garden cities, expressionism, brutalism, modernism, Bauhaus school, tower-in-the-park, tract housing, organic architecture aka Zaha Hadid etc).
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Old December 4th, 2013, 06:27 PM   #1106
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Most of these 'revolutionary concepts' were utter failures that defaced entire cities. Aesthetics should always be the primary concern of architects.

I also think its ironic that so many of these architects choose to live in old townhouses and mansions instead of their concrete monstrosities.
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Old December 4th, 2013, 06:31 PM   #1107
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you dont like neoclassicism?

I think it looks great! "Modern" architecture at the moment to 99% doesnt convince me in Berlin....
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Old December 4th, 2013, 06:33 PM   #1108
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Aesthetics should always be the primary concern of architects.
No, functionality should be. There is everything wrong with your statement, which is why non-famous architects get railroad by civil engineers and developers all the time: they are so concerned these days with things like 'make it fit the neighborhood' or other stuff that they forget to make buildings that will work well and fit the expectations of their clients.
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Old December 4th, 2013, 06:36 PM   #1109
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No, functionality should be.
The implication being that aesthetics and functionality never get along. BS.

Haussmannian apartment blocks are both beautiful and functional. A concrete tower block is neither beautiful nor functional. With you it is always about ideology.
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Old December 4th, 2013, 06:55 PM   #1110
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No, functionality should be.
Aesthetics have a function that can be demanded by the public and should be demanded by the developer. The function is to make people feel good in their environment.
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Old December 4th, 2013, 06:58 PM   #1111
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Aesthetics are a function that can be demanded by the public and should be demanded by the developer.
Sure, but it is entirely subjective.

There are reasonable standards defining, say, the optimum design of emergency exists, or possible schemes to enhance air circulation, or how to insulate noise or heat.

There aren't ways to define, except for personal taste, whether a glass wall or stucco are better for a façade. Any judgment on that is entirely subjective.
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Old December 4th, 2013, 07:17 PM   #1112
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Sure, but it is entirely subjective.

There are reasonable standards defining, say, the optimum design of emergency exists, or possible schemes to enhance air circulation, or how to insulate noise or heat.

There aren't ways to define, except for personal taste, whether a glass wall or stucco are better for a façade. Any judgment on that is entirely subjective.
Of course "better" is highly subjectiv and of course no one can claim a stucco facade is better than one of steel and glass. BUT beauty is imho not really that subjective, as people use to say. Ask a representative group of people, if they find these Berliner facades beautiful:

image hosted on flickr

Das Märkische Ufer mit dem Ermelerhaus in Berlin Mitte by Jonny__B_Kirchhain, on Flickr

...or if they find these Berliner facades beautiful:

image hosted on flickr

In der Friedrichstraße, Berlin-Mitte ... by bayernernst, on Flickr

Guess, what the overwhelming majority would say...? There's a reason Paris, Rome and Vienna are considered the most beautiful cities, while Berlin, London, Warsaw are not (anymore)...
And if people nowadays again strife for more beauty in their surroundings (with every modern comfort), it's perfectly clear which way to go. Honestly, who are you or any architect to deny them that?
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Old December 4th, 2013, 07:23 PM   #1113
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There aren't ways to define, except for personal taste, whether a glass wall or stucco are better for a façade. Any judgment on that is entirely subjective.
If it was that subjective, why do so many people prefer to live in the old historic neighbourhood? If aesthetics were so irrelevant and tastes so random, why don't we just demolish the old, outdated and unfit buildings, especially in the Netherlands, where there's still loads of them?

I'm not against modern architecture in gerneral, I'm just against ideology and thought control.
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Old December 4th, 2013, 07:27 PM   #1114
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I'm not saying anything. It looks nice all of it. But looks like XIX century. We have 2013 why they're going to build that? I mean it is a little cheap and funny.
Because old style is most beautifful than new modern style ...
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Old December 4th, 2013, 10:01 PM   #1115
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It is not like that. Most cities were rather small before mass industrialization drove many peasants and farmers to expansion areas in cities. So whatever architecture was in vogue at the time became the dominant style on cities that boomed during the 2nd Industrial revolution like Berlin, which sort-of peaked in the 1920s in that aspect.

If you go to a place that peaked much earlier like Venice (Italy), you will see that dominant style is that of 17th Century pallazzi.
I meant "standing the test of time" in the sense of their continued appeal. Of course some of the 19th century architecture looked dated in the 1920s, hence the complete about-face with the Neue Sachlichkeit and similar movements. Today's German cities look like crap though because they were rebuilt during an era that produced virtually no memorable architecture. Hardly anyone would be sad to see postwar Nuremberg disappear.

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It is better to be bold and try to shape the future
There's nothing bolder than for an architect to be inspired by past architectural styles since they will inevitably be shunned by their peers for such a move. What's happening in Berlin is great. They're taking a classic approach to designing buildings and adding their own unique style to it...something that had been the case for centuries until the Bauhaus arrived and created a complete break with the past.
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Old December 5th, 2013, 12:07 AM   #1116
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It is better to be bold and try to shape the future than live in a perpetual state of nostalgia longing for times (and architecture typical of times) people weren't born to have experienced first hand. It is a riskier proposition, as certain styles might fall out of fashion soon, but at least you can say you tried. One can never fault mid-20th Century architects for trying very hard to do that, with varying degrees of long-term success. They were not afraid of the future, they embraced and gambled on it with revolutionary concepts (garden cities, expressionism, brutalism, modernism, Bauhaus school, tower-in-the-park, tract housing, organic architecture aka Zaha Hadid etc).
With all due respect, your arguments help in illustrating my point. The problem with these arguments is that they are essentially expressions of preference, and ultimately do not form an argument against using an architectural style. Neither party, neither the nostalgist nor the futurist were "born to have experienced first hand" the times from which they are building; and whether it is "better," "bolder," or "riskier" are judgments based simply on attitude and ideology.

As someone already mentioned, in the current world of haute architecture, traditionalists are not in the mainstream. Ironically by virtue of their choice, they are "risk takers," and "free-thinkers." Using traditional, historic architecture and urban planning has itself also become a "revolutionary concept," and a contemporary attempt at building "better," improving on the tract house/radiant city/etc. model of the past. That new, traditional model required as much boldness and risk, and faced as much criticism (if not more) as any model put forward by the modernists of the past.

The point is, you can't fault either architect, either the nostalgist or the futurist for producing architecture that seeks to improve the lives of the people they are building for, or for seeking "the good." You can however find fault with architects and ideologues who automatically equate "the good" with "the new," as much as you can find fault with those who equate it with "the old." Competence and excellence (which can encompass all forms of architecture) should be the only guidelines.

However it must be said that you can attempt to define what works "better" by simple data and analysis. For example, the towers in the park schemes of the modernists have largely been discredited due to the observed effect they had, and comparing them to "traditional" neighborhoods that remained intact.
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Old December 5th, 2013, 12:23 AM   #1117
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Schuetzenstrasse 46 at Krausenquarter

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Source: http://www.mic-arc.de/projekte/Schuetzenstrasse_46.html
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Old December 5th, 2013, 05:34 PM   #1118
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No, functionality should be.
Form is function. Form is function. Form is function.


Schreib dir das hinter die Ohren, Modernistenrotzlöffel.
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Old December 5th, 2013, 06:02 PM   #1119
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Are there any redevelopment plans for this big lot or this Spree island?
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Old December 5th, 2013, 11:19 PM   #1120
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Form is function.
Simplicity is a form.
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