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Old May 16th, 2014, 03:29 PM   #301
bongo-anders
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolaj View Post
Nope. It is specifically stated in the political agreement that the 2 stations Frederiksholmløbet and Slusen will be built as ordinary subway stations and not under water. http://www.trm.dk/~/media/Files/Publ...havnsmetro.pdf - 4th paragraph.
Oh sorry for that, I must have remembered it wrong because I thought that Frederiksholmsløbet was the underwater station.
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Old May 16th, 2014, 03:54 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Yes, it's billed as "Line M4", though I must caution you that the Copenhagen metro company uses the line designation very liberally. Whenever a metro line is split between two end destinations they pretend that it's two different lines - even if perhaps there's just a few stations' difference. M3 designates the circular line that's currently under construction. M4 designates the two deviations into the norther and southern port quarters. However, on most of the route, M3 and M4 uses the same tracks.


I think you are talking about the S-tog system because neither M1 or M2 is just a few stations difference.


But to be fair the S-tog lines doesn´t run on the same lines on both ends.

If we take the A and E lines they run together on Køge Bugt Banen, E all the way from Køge and A from Solrød Strand/Hundige.

But north of Copenhagen line A takes the Farum banen to Farum and Line E takes Nordbanen to Hillerød so its not just a case of running 2 lines with adjusted stops.


The same is the case with the C and H line, both runs parallel from Frederikssund/Ballerup but while C ends 3 stations up at Kystbanen at Klampenborg (but on separate tracks) Line H continues to Farum if it doesn´t terminate at Østerport on the core line.


B is unique in that way that it runs solo on the Vestbanen from Høje Taastrup but shares Nordbanen with Line E until Holte.
Bx only runs between Høje Taastrup and Østerport in the morning rush hour.
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Old May 16th, 2014, 09:07 PM   #303
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Does anyone know how they will designate travel direction on Cityringen? On a ring their method of naming services on line name and terminus (e.g., M1 - Vanløse) can't work.
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Old May 16th, 2014, 10:07 PM   #304
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Thats a good question.



If you look at the station designs that are posted some pages back it suggest that they will have a via point but why show Kongens Nytorv as a viapoint if the direction of the arrow in the M3 logo is Anticlockwise and the list of following stations (Rådhuspladsen and Gammel Strand) also suggest anticlockwise.

But Kongens Nytorv is the next station on the line if you travel in the clockwise direction!!!!!







Kongens Nytorv is marked with a huge black dot so I think it works as a via point, THe other interchange between the old and new system is Frederiksberg and its the black dot on the left on the metro map.



Last edited by bongo-anders; May 16th, 2014 at 10:15 PM.
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Old May 16th, 2014, 10:28 PM   #305
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Future Metro in Copenhagen(?)

Hello Skyscrapercity, i have been following many of the forums for some time now, but now i have decided to do my first post. I have always been a fan of metro systems and how to plan new ones. I have made a scematic and geospacial map of a future metro system in Copenhagen, it is based on my intuition and knowledge of where metro could be needed, and what connections could be made. I have also largely based many of the ideas of other maps, many of whom from Skyscrapercity, and this is simply my view of the best combination. I have been working on it for a long time, and while i might not be scientifically litterate on the subject, i have though long and well about it, so many of the decisions are there for a reason, which i have though about. It is more a map of the general idea of how the network in my mind shoud stick toghether, and therefore specific details might be misrepresented. I hope you will enjoy my map, and come with feedback on how to improve it.
Here is the Schematic:

...and here is the map:


The background map "Indeholder data fra Geodatastyrelsen", kortforsyningen.dk
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Old May 16th, 2014, 10:30 PM   #306
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I had a link limitation on my previous post, here are larger image versions:
http://i.imgur.com/PNYSNPh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/oo1b8nB.jpg
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Old May 16th, 2014, 10:31 PM   #307
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And here are the full sizes:
Map: (187MB) (TIFF)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bihwjjacvs...København.tiff
Schematic: (331MB) (TIFF)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/n2anr8d35t...0Skematisk.svg
Schematic: (60KB) (SVG, Vector)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/n2anr8d35t...0Skematisk.svg
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Old May 16th, 2014, 10:48 PM   #308
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Nice maps, it is a little bit different than my fantasy map but it works



But to be in the realms of your map I had an idea of extending M4 further out than Hvidovre Hospital.

If it was lengthened to Glostrup it could join the Lightrail in Ring 3 (and your M1) and on the way adding stops at Brøndby Stadion and Priorparken business park.

I had then visioned that the parking lot at Brøndby Stadion could be used as a park and ride facility on non mach days, it would "only" require 2 westbound exit ramps on the Holbæk motorway.
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Old May 16th, 2014, 11:30 PM   #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bongo-anders View Post
Nice maps, it is a little bit different than my fantasy map but it works



But to be in the realms of your map I had an idea of extending M4 further out than Hvidovre Hospital.

If it was lengthened to Glostrup it could join the Lightrail in Ring 3 (and your M1) and on the way adding stops at Brøndby Stadion and Priorparken business park.

I had then visioned that the parking lot at Brøndby Stadion could be used as a park and ride facility on non mach days, it would "only" require 2 westbound exit ramps on the Holbæk motorway.
I liked your idea so much that i made a map illustrating why i left it out of mine.

I again want to stress that this is again that i was prioritising while making this map, to make it ambitious but not go too far. If the money was there was there to extend it further then i would be all for it, and it might be one of the first extensions i would recommend after the ones i just presented. But for starters i would think that BRT systems could fill in the gap in Brøndbyvester, and Priorparken, plus Vallendsbæk Nord which i also have on the map could have busses going much closer to the city than the station i made. But nevertheless not a bad idea at all, thanks for the input.
Also priorparken is relative close to my M1 proposal, though the station would still be pretty far away.

Edit:
Woops i made this in bit of a hurry, the city described as Vallensbæk is actually Avedøre.
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Last edited by kopavap; May 17th, 2014 at 12:42 AM.
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Old May 16th, 2014, 11:53 PM   #310
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Here is a map of new metro lines and a road tunnel that are a part of this agreement.



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Old May 17th, 2014, 12:40 AM   #311
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Yes the metro network has moved on pretty far, and the map i made was to illustate what i would think could be a good extention.
I don't know the socioeconomic benefit of the different ideas, but if i had to put them into phases it could go something like this:
Phase 1(pretty much already decided on: KBH-Ny ellebjerg, and:Østerport-Orintplads):
Extend M4 north from Østerport to a circle line around nordhavn, and extend it south from KBH H to Hvidovre Hospital.
Phase 2: Extend M1 to Rødovre Centrum
Phase 3: Build the M5 Ring line, and the M6 spur line.
Phase 4: Extend M1 to Glostrup and M2 to Buddinge.
Phase 5: Make S-strain F into metro 7, and extend it to Copenhagen airport.

But again this is just an example of how to use my wanky ideas to make an actual plan, i simply put forth where i think the metro could be beneficial.
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Old May 17th, 2014, 04:34 PM   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCUrbanist View Post
Does anyone know how they will designate travel direction on Cityringen? On a ring their method of naming services on line name and terminus (e.g., M1 - Vanløse) can't work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bongo-anders View Post
Thats a good question.

If you look at the station designs that are posted some pages back it suggest that they will have a via point but why show Kongens Nytorv as a viapoint if the direction of the arrow in the M3 logo is Anticlockwise and the list of following stations (Rådhuspladsen and Gammel Strand) also suggest anticlockwise.

But Kongens Nytorv is the next station on the line if you travel in the clockwise direction!!!!!

Kongens Nytorv is marked with a huge black dot so I think it works as a via point, THe other interchange between the old and new system is Frederiksberg and its the black dot on the left on the metro map.
They should learn from Berlin (S train circular lines S41 and S42) or Danish Movia (circular bus lines 77 and 78). Ie. use separate line numbers for each direction. But the Danish Metro company probably won't realize that before it is too late, and changes of signs and systems etc. will cost millions of DKK.

http://www.bvg.de/index.php/en/binar...20909/file/1-1

http://www.moviatrafik.dk/dinrejse/k...enhavnCity.pdf

Last edited by Peter999; May 17th, 2014 at 04:39 PM.
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Old May 17th, 2014, 06:02 PM   #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter999 View Post
They should learn from Berlin (S train circular lines S41 and S42) or Danish Movia (circular bus lines 77 and 78). Ie. use separate line numbers for each direction. But the Danish Metro company probably won't realize that before it is too late, and changes of signs and systems etc. will cost millions of DKK.

http://www.bvg.de/index.php/en/binar...20909/file/1-1

http://www.moviatrafik.dk/dinrejse/k...enhavnCity.pdf
I have thought about some of the things, tried reading up on it on the forum, but i am still confused as to how they are going to do it, i like the simplicity of only having one metro, instead of one in each direction, but admittedly it makes it a lot harder to get around.
The picture below i made is based of concept art from Marmorkirken Station, which is connected to both M3 and M4. I can see what it is trying to do, but i still feel it begs some big questions:

1.Why the low frequency?
This is on a stop that shoud have plenty of trains going trough, in the areas where the M1 and M2 cooperate they both generate a frequency of 100 seconds per direction. But look at the concept art and you will see that apperently they choose a time where the M3 in the middle of the city only departs every 480 seconds, that is over twice as long as the M1 and M2 each counting in at 200seconds in Rush hour, and still a lot less than in the day hours when they depart every 300 seconds. Maybe they have choosen to represent a awkward time of day, with few trains... but why would they, isn't the concept art suposed to show how often the trains depart on a busy day, not in the lonely hours of the evening?

2. One direction?:
From what i can see, the M3 only goes south in the three departures shown on the pictures, via Kongens Nytorv, maybe this table only show the trains in one direction since the Marble church platforms are on differenct levels?... no because the M4 only goes north towards norhavnen, so that makes no sense either. We can assume that since the M4 is only shown once, that the forth one is the M4 going south, but the M3 is still not explained. Maybe the sign actually tells diffenrent directions of the train and i simply have not noticed the system, but the sign clearly says Kongens Nytorv on both departures, and if they were not both going directly there, and one of them went not clockwise, but counter-clockwise, then the sign would be very misleading, because from the Marble Church to Kongens Nytorv is 78 seconds clockwise, but counter-clockwise is would be 1368 seconds, a significant time difference.


Now i might be missing something important, but something along this defeneatly seems fishy. But i have confidence that Metroselskabet will be able to solve this problem, and the concept art might just be flaud, and i am happy with their decition to make the ring line just one metro line. But never the less, i am looking foward to seeing their solution.
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Old May 17th, 2014, 07:28 PM   #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter999 View Post
They should learn from Berlin (S train circular lines S41 and S42) or Danish Movia (circular bus lines 77 and 78). Ie. use separate line numbers for each direction. But the Danish Metro company probably won't realize that before it is too late, and changes of signs and systems etc. will cost millions of DKK.

http://www.bvg.de/index.php/en/binar...20909/file/1-1

http://www.moviatrafik.dk/dinrejse/k...enhavnCity.pdf
Quote:
Originally Posted by kopavap View Post
[...]



Now i might be missing something important, but something along this defeneatly seems fishy. But i have confidence that Metroselskabet will be able to solve this problem, and the concept art might just be flaud, and i am happy with their decition to make the ring line just one metro line. But never the less, i am looking foward to seeing their solution.
It would be easier for the customers to say/write M31 and M32 (as in Berlin) than "M3 clockwise" and "M3 counterclockwise" ("M3 med uret" and "M3 mod uret" in Danish). Even when using separate line numberd they could still add the arrows around the line number as extra, useful information.
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Old May 17th, 2014, 07:43 PM   #315
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Conflicting sides of my mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter999 View Post
It would be easier for the customers to say/write M31 and M32 (as in Berlin) than "M3 clockwise" and "M3 counterclockwise" ("M3 med uret" and "M3 mod uret" in Danish). Even when using separate line numberd they could still add the arrows around the line number as extra, useful information.
Yes i have to say that my logical and reasonable side of me agrees with you, making separate numbers would be more practical.

But the weird idealistic and perfectionistic side of me simply prefers that it should be only one line, simply because it is cleaner to look at, not because it would be easier.
But yes you are right in terms of what would make most sense in practicality.
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Old May 18th, 2014, 02:53 AM   #316
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Welcome to the SSC, Kopavap, and thanks for the map, it has some fresh ideas in it, which is good to see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kopavap View Post
1.Why the low frequency?
This is on a stop that shoud have plenty of trains going trough, in the areas where the M1 and M2 cooperate they both generate a frequency of 100 seconds per direction. But look at the concept art and you will see that apperently they choose a time where the M3 in the middle of the city only departs every 480 seconds, that is over twice as long as the M1 and M2 each counting in at 200seconds in Rush hour, and still a lot less than in the day hours when they depart every 300 seconds. Maybe they have choosen to represent a awkward time of day, with few trains... but why would they, isn't the concept art suposed to show how often the trains depart on a busy day, not in the lonely hours of the evening?

2. One direction?:
From what i can see, the M3 only goes south in the three departures shown on the pictures, via Kongens Nytorv, maybe this table only show the trains in one direction since the Marble church platforms are on differenct levels?... no because the M4 only goes north towards norhavnen, so that makes no sense either. We can assume that since the M4 is only shown once, that the forth one is the M4 going south, but the M3 is still not explained. Maybe the sign actually tells diffenrent directions of the train and i simply have not noticed the system, but the sign clearly says Kongens Nytorv on both departures, and if they were not both going directly there, and one of them went not clockwise, but counter-clockwise, then the sign would be very misleading, because from the Marble Church to Kongens Nytorv is 78 seconds clockwise, but counter-clockwise is would be 1368 seconds, a significant time difference.

Now i might be missing something important, but something along this defeneatly seems fishy. But i have confidence that Metroselskabet will be able to solve this problem, and the concept art might just be flaud, and i am happy with their decition to make the ring line just one metro line. But never the less, i am looking foward to seeing their solution.
You are drawing conclusions from a place which has little to do with reality. This image is just an artist's impression of the look of the future station and no deeper details should not been rendered as the truth in any way, it is just an illustration. It would be like collecting 19th century climate data based on Van Gogh's paintings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kopavap View Post
Yes i have to say that my logical and reasonable side of me agrees with you, making separate numbers would be more practical.

But the weird idealistic and perfectionistic side of me simply prefers that it should be only one line, simply because it is cleaner to look at, not because it would be easier.
But yes you are right in terms of what would make most sense in practicality.
I agree with you on this one. Also, we have already had a substantial discussion of this issue earlier in the Circle Line tread.
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Old May 18th, 2014, 08:44 AM   #317
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I think you are talking about the S-tog system because neither M1 or M2 is just a few stations difference.
Not at all. I confess that my reference point is Paris, which is where I live. For example, the Parisian Line 13 splits in two in the central parts of town in order to serve two different northern periferal and suburban areas. I think there's about 12 stations that are not common. But it would not occur to anyone to say that this makes it two lines. It's "Line 13, Direction Gabriel Peri" and "Line 13, Direction Saint Denis". Frankly, I was surprised when the Copenhagen metro company decided that they had an M1 and an M2 just because there are two branches on Amager.
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Old May 18th, 2014, 01:03 PM   #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kapo311 View Post
Welcome to the SSC, Kopavap, and thanks for the map, it has some fresh ideas in it, which is good to see.



You are drawing conclusions from a place which has little to do with reality. This image is just an artist's impression of the look of the future station and no deeper details should not been rendered as the truth in any way, it is just an illustration. It would be like collecting 19th century climate data based on Van Gogh's paintings.



I agree with you on this one. Also, we have already had a substantial discussion of this issue earlier in the Circle Line tread.
And again i have to fully agree with you, an artists impression is just what they interpreted it should look like, i understand that it was only made for the appearance. I also stated in the end of my post that i am confident that metroselskabet will be able to solve this problem, so i was just nitpicking for the heck of it, i was just overanalysing something that didn't needed to.

Though if i can say one thing metroselskabet has done horribly wrong is the sound message before Christianshavn. If you are on the M2 and on your way to the airport as a tourist, then at Christianshavn then you will hear:
"Toget kører til.... This train terminates at.... Lufthavnen! Copenhagen airport!"
This is one point where they failed to bring the correct message across since the change in language and tone might make you think that the next stop is Copenhagen Airport. If they just said it as coherent sentences instead:
"Toget kører til Lufthavnen
This train terminates at Copenhagen Airport"

...but hopefully to many people aren't caught of guard, and accidentally go out at Christianshavn, but i still fringe every time i hear it. <me
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Old May 19th, 2014, 12:05 AM   #319
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Not at all. I confess that my reference point is Paris, which is where I live. For example, the Parisian Line 13 splits in two in the central parts of town in order to serve two different northern periferal and suburban areas. I think there's about 12 stations that are not common. But it would not occur to anyone to say that this makes it two lines. It's "Line 13, Direction Gabriel Peri" and "Line 13, Direction Saint Denis". Frankly, I was surprised when the Copenhagen metro company decided that they had an M1 and an M2 just because there are two branches on Amager.

But it has its advantages, a tourist going to visit The Blue Planet doesn't have to know if Kastrup station is located towards Vestamager or Lufthavnen, they know that M2 is the line they need to take.

Also I can't see why it shouldn't be considered as 2 lines and if they ever get to extend M1 to Brøndbyøster they would even have different destinations in both ends.
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Old May 19th, 2014, 07:00 PM   #320
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Sorry for spamming but I found a more detailed map of the Sydhavnsmetro showing the overground part near Ny Ellebjerg.

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