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Old August 20th, 2009, 12:44 PM   #61
Urbanus
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How much preparation would be needed? They wouldn't need a new platform for these extetion (apart from the Østerport line). The new extetions would only split from the ring (like M1 and M2 do at Christianshavn) and use the excisting Nørrebro and København H stations.

I understand that i would disrupt service while in construction. But if they start from the other end it should be minimal, with no disruption on the east part of the line. Am I missing something crusial?
They will need a division chamber between Nørrebro and Rådmandsmarken stations if a branch toward Brønshøj/Husum should be possible, that would cost something like 250 mio. DKK or 33 mio. Euro. Originally the municipal of Copenhagen have agreed to spend that money to prepare this division chamber, but since they have changed their mind and cut it out. It will be very difficult and more expensive to build while the metro is in service.

The line toward Nordhavn is not a branch, and therefor can be built even if it havn't been prepared, and there will be tracks towards Sydhavnen anyways, as the control and maintaince center will be there, and it will not be as difficult to extend them, so these two extensions is possible, but it it the brønshøj-line that have the biggest potential for passengers.

To Staff and LoveCPH: I agree, I don't like the lay out and design of the line and stations either! But is focus on the positive thing: We will get more metro, better coverage of the inner city and the rest of the city (Nørrebro and Østerbro in particular). I would have prefered regular lines, as I don't like circle lines much, and even if it will be very fast, it will feels like a detour. And I have never liked the station design!

LoveCPH: Why Berlin and Prague? These two cities station design are extremely far from each other. However I like diversity, I like the deep tube stations that can serve a large area with severel entrances - like in Prague and Stockholm.
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Old August 20th, 2009, 04:07 PM   #62
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What they could do then (in the distant future) is to make the Brønshøjlinjen and Havnlinjen into a new separate line, going through Nørrebro, with possible stations at Rigshospitalet and Tagensvej/Jagtvej. The problem with that line is that it doesn't connect with the M1/M2
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Old August 20th, 2009, 07:01 PM   #63
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* Urbanus. Simply just because I've been to these two cities and I was impressed be the layout of the stations. Well-designed and with alot of space.
Where the cph-stations are 'petite' and there's escalators in the middle.
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Old August 20th, 2009, 08:31 PM   #64
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The most annoying thing about the Copenhagen Metro are that there is only one accesspoint to the platform. That middle area then fills up and because of the lack of space it's very hard to get to the end of the platform where fewer people are.
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Old August 21st, 2009, 11:53 AM   #65
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* Urbanus. Simply just because I've been to these two cities and I was impressed be the layout of the stations. Well-designed and with alot of space.
Where the cph-stations are 'petite' and there's escalators in the middle.
I totally agree.

I only reacted because you pointed out two cities with two that different and extreme opposite stationdesigns.
But personally, as mentioned, I like diversity, and that perhaps is what I like about the Berlin stations most, there are many different types of stations, different architecture, layout, design, style etc. But also Prague have some nice stations.

My personal favorites are cities like Stockholm, Munich and Hamburg. Still with great diversity, different styles, but with basically a great design and very spacious. I also like the underground stations of Amsterdam metro, even though they are very uniform and the system is ridiculous small, but I kind of like their design.

Becide the lack of diversity, and the extreme uniform design, my main complains about the Copenhagen stations are:
- the escalators in the middle, stupid when you have such a big room, but you don't get the feeling of the big spacious room
- too small
- not enough entrances, not cover very large area
- the escalators goes in the same direction, giving a bad flow sitaution, instead of spreading the crowd in different directions
- no escalators in the last bid from concourse level to street level, why??!! Frederiksberg kommune have descided to add these in their stations of the City ring, but not Copenhagen. It seems like a stupid place to save money
- no kiosks, no convenience stores, no fast food stands, I miss some life, especially in the concourse levels (the upper level)
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Old August 22nd, 2009, 08:52 AM   #66
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Quote:
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What they could do then (in the distant future) is to make the Brønshøjlinjen and Havnlinjen into a new separate line, going through Nørrebro, with possible stations at Rigshospitalet and Tagensvej/Jagtvej. The problem with that line is that it doesn't connect with the M1/M2
My thought precisely! - And I would suspect that the reason they dropped the division chamber north of Norrebro station was precisely because this is on their minds. One can see why this part (the division chamber, I mean) appeals to the traffic planners: If you have a line diversion BEFORE Norrebro then the passengers from Husum/Bronshoj are denied the possibility to shift to the existing S-train at Norrebro station. From a planning perspective it is far better to have a combined S/Metro station at Norrebro.

Finally, are you sure that the line they might have in mind doesn't connect with the M1/M2? It looks to me (from the sketch) like they're thinking of splitting its eastern trajectory (and that makes sense: there would be more passengers from Bronshoej then from the harbour area) into a northern and a southern leg. The southern leg would, it seems, serve the new opera and could easily continue down across Christianshavn. (Call me suspicious, but they probably plan to re-develop Christiania at some point... and what would be nicer than having a "Baadsmandstraede Metro"...) This line would connect with M1/M2 at Christianshavns Torv.

Last edited by hans280; August 23rd, 2009 at 12:58 PM. Reason: Erroneous use of "Norreport" instead of "Norrebro"
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Old August 22nd, 2009, 05:06 PM   #67
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edit: I suspect you're talking about Nørrebro and not Nørreport

I think that would be a good line. I can't see where it would go past Chistianshavn. But i guess Amager is pretty well covered by then. It couldcontinue to the far western part of Amager if the decide to develop that area further.
And don't forget that by the Opera there are plenty of school and Bus 66 is always full to the brim. You can even hear when it turns because the tires hit the body. That's how full it is.

Last edited by Schliemann; August 22nd, 2009 at 08:20 PM.
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Old August 22nd, 2009, 07:15 PM   #68
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Quote:
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- not enough entrances, not cover very large area
- the escalators goes in the same direction, giving a bad flow sitaution, instead of spreading the crowd in different directions
- no escalators in the last bid from concourse level to street level, why??!! Frederiksberg kommune have descided to add these in their stations of the City ring, but not Copenhagen. It seems like a stupid place to save money
(the upper level)
Like I heard it, the reason to only have one entrace is to create a meeting point. First of all the stations aren't very big so two entrances are less nessisary. Since you mentioned Berlin: I was once told by a friend to meet him at Rosenthaler Platz. There are five entrances to that station and thus a total headache. A Metro with one entance is the perfect meating point even for those not using it.

The point about the escalators moving in the same direction is definately a problem. That means that every body enters the platform in the middle and everybody exits the platform in one end. But i suspect the reason is controlling. It's a very convenient place for the controllers to stand at that bottle-neck.

The fact that there are no ecalators from the street level is probably just for the look and maintanance. To have an esculator standing outside in the rain would probably create problems. That might demand a roof which drastically changes the looks of the stations. For those not able to take the stairs there is an elevator
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Old August 22nd, 2009, 08:16 PM   #69
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I think that would be a good line. I can't see where it would go past Chistianshavn. But i guess Amager is pretty well covered by then. It couldcontinue to the far western part of Amager if the decide to develop that area further.
Yeah, I dont' think such a line should continue - if at all - out on Amager. The locals clamour for a connection to Sundbyvester Plands, it is true, but there's just too few people living in that area. (Amagerbrogade LOOKS very urban, but one block away and it's all bungalows....) Like you I'd stop at Christianshavns Torv. - Or, if at all, continue down to somewhere just south of Langebro and then perhaps include one last stop either in the Amager side of Sydhavnen (if this area is to be developed) or otherwise cross the water and stop at Fisketorvet.
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Old August 22nd, 2009, 09:51 PM   #70
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Well some metrostations are like mazes

If considering another "ring", it can eventually begin from the airportline and cross the amager line and the clock around. then it will cover the middle of amager. Just a thought
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Old August 23rd, 2009, 01:16 AM   #71
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So this could be the possible M5/M6

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Old August 23rd, 2009, 01:48 AM   #72
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Just a sidenote. What would the cityring be named? M3? Since there are no endstations it could become confusing. The cityring in Berlin is called S41 and S42 (S41 going clockwise and S42 counter-clockwise), and has circular arrow to show the direction. But still i see people confused on which train to take. How do they solves this problems in other cities, such as Moscow?
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Old August 23rd, 2009, 10:07 AM   #73
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Nice graphics, Schliemann. There's clearly another Troy for you to Burn. Yes, that's how I imagine it; the only question mark in my mind is whether they'd want a M station at Svanemoellen as well or, as your map indicates, make do with the existing S station for connection to Osterbro.

As for the name of the cityring, I think it's a foregone conclusion that it will be called M3 There's little reason to picke a boastful naming conventions like M1/M2 for what is essentially one line if they don't want to keep it up. Or, did you mean, will they name the two opposite directions M3 and M4? I don't think they can do that unless they build at least one line deviation (say, the southern version?). It'd be a source of confusion to have the same line numbered differently unless there was, at least, different end stations.

Another solution than the Berlin one would be the one the Parisians have chosen for their circular motorway. Most times you come across a sign toward the "Pereferique" it adds underneath "Interieur" or "Exterieur". For you to remember that, since there's right side drive, the interior side of the road runs clockwise and exterior anti-clockwise.

PS: yes, you're right. I confused Norrebro and Norreport in an earlier posting.

Last edited by hans280; August 23rd, 2009 at 12:44 PM.
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Old August 23rd, 2009, 09:13 PM   #74
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The explanation is that one line will work the circle while the other will work a half circle, from NørreBRO to Copenhagen C via Østerport. This eastern half circle will have potentially twice as passengers as the western half, hense M3 and M4.
Reversing sidings are to be built at Nørrebro and Copenhagen C, though in my opinion, it would be more logical to reverse the trains at a new station at, for example Fisketorv, by the route to the depot and a much needed servicing of the developing harbour front. This would also save the cost of tunneling a reversing siding under Halmtorvet (west of Copenhagen C)

[IMG]http://i28.************/15d6rva.gif[/IMG]

Last edited by Never give up; August 23rd, 2009 at 09:30 PM. Reason: Insert map
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Old August 24th, 2009, 05:09 PM   #75
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Thanks for the clarification. So, the problem remains, how to alert people to the driving direction of what we now know to be the circular M3.

As for the "half-circle" M4, which obviously retains the flexibility to add legs in any directions and hence break out of the half-circle, I remain wedded to the idea of a southern leg. As you yourself say, there's a deviation already for maintenance reasons. Also, if you take a look at the map reflecting Schliemann's and my thoughts concerning a new harbour line, the one "missing line" would be one down through the Sydhavnen ("South Harbour"). Given time it could even be extended down to Hvidovre, which in terms of S-trains, etc. is one of the most poorly covered parts of CPH. (But, only if the authorities feel rich: it's not very densely populated.)
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Old August 24th, 2009, 07:53 PM   #76
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I enjoy the discussion about not only what's happening but how the system might look like in the end. So here is an updated map of what i feel would make the Metro a fantastic system.



So let me explain what i am thinking.

Dark blue line:
I've extended the line from Christianshavn because i remember a presitation from a architecture firm to make a new Metro-town, where there are now single family houses. To make it more usable it connects to the M4 by Sluseholmen.

Øresund train:
If the M4 and the darkblue line connect at Sluseholmen there could be built a new station at that location

Cian line:
Although unnessisary to a certain extent it could fill up gaps in Nørrebro and Vesterbro. It continues to Hvidøvre and ends in the industrial area at Avedøre Holme. At some point it could split up but that is not included on this map.

M4:
Extended to connect with the cian line at least.
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Old August 24th, 2009, 09:05 PM   #77
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It's a really nice idea you have to visualise our ideas and discussions, Schliemann. I agree that a likely outcome of our visions discussed so far might be an extension of the "dark blue line" through Christianshavn down to Sluseholmen, and your drawing of M4 corresponds with the theories I already proffered. (I'd say, though, that the extensions to of the South Harbor Line to Hvidovre and Christianshavn to Sluseholmen will be operational only when you and I sit in a senior citizens home....)

Your "cian line", however, I'd say is a bridge too far. I'd concede that two proposed stations on this line would be underprovided with public transport (after the inauguration of Lines M3/4/5/6, that is...), namely the inner Norrebro and the area next to Planetariet. But as for the rest... nah, they're either crossing pre-existing stations or running through areas where few people live and work.
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Old August 24th, 2009, 09:57 PM   #78
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Good. The Darkblue - just my thoughts! ;-)
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Old August 24th, 2009, 11:26 PM   #79
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I have to admit that I think you are right. After a more carful look at the maps, M4 would be enough for Hvidovre and the Avedøreholmen.
Then there is always the possibility to extend the M1/M2 to the west. They would split it into two again. One continuing straight to Ejby/Islev and the other to Albertslund/Glostrup/Rødovre. There is a big industrial area in Albertslund which might be turned into residental and commerce area, if i remember correctly.
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Old August 25th, 2009, 10:00 AM   #80
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Like I heard it, the reason to only have one entrace is to create a meeting point. First of all the stations aren't very big so two entrances are less nessisary. Since you mentioned Berlin: I was once told by a friend to meet him at Rosenthaler Platz. There are five entrances to that station and thus a total headache. A Metro with one entance is the perfect meating point even for those not using it.
Well, I think station design rather should reflect the needs of everyday pendlers/travellers, than an occasional need for af meeting point. I think people porabably will find each other anyway, and then find some more exact meeting points. Like when I'm meeting someone on Nørreport, I always point out an exact place - like in front of the kiosks or something like that.

Quote:
The point about the escalators moving in the same direction is definately a problem. That means that every body enters the platform in the middle and everybody exits the platform in one end. But i suspect the reason is controlling. It's a very convenient place for the controllers to stand at that bottle-neck.
But they can change the direction of the escalators as they want, so they could just do that only when there is control. I don't think that's the reason. The reason I have heard was to control the flow, but I think it would be better to spread the flow.

Quote:
The fact that there are no ecalators from the street level is probably just for the look and maintanance. To have an esculator standing outside in the rain would probably create problems. That might demand a roof which drastically changes the looks of the stations. For those not able to take the stairs there is an elevator
There actually is an outside escalator on Fasanvej station, and it works fine. I've have also seen outside escalators in many other cities of Europe. It can work. And if it didn't, you could add a roof, as many entrances have also in other cities. In the cityring there actually will be escalators from the street level in the stations in Frederiksberg: Aksel Møllers Have, Frederiksberg and Plantanvej will all have escalators. But Københavns Kommune didn't want to spend the money in their part. In the early drawings there were escalators on the Gl. Strand Station and Nørrebro, but not anymore at Gl. Strand - I don't remember about Nørrebro. But I think all station should have it, or at least all the big ones. Not even Rådmansmarken, which will have entrance inside a corner building (like you also see in many other cities), and therefor under roof, will have escalators...
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