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Old December 14th, 2017, 07:25 PM   #881
Danton05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1993matias View Post
In five years? Yeah, good luck with that.
As far as I know there are no other systems of this size with driverless trains. Again, Denmark becomes a first mover with a technology that isn't proven yet (*cough* ETCS), I only expect delays, budget overruns - and maybe even a few accidents.
It's going to be more than 5 years, but the step from fully functioning CBTC to driverless isnt supposed to be that big, especially not when they're replacing the trains anyway. If/when the new signals are in place and working they will already have done much of the groundwork.

It's ambitious because it's a big project, but I dont think it's really that innovative or unproven. Is it more complicated than line 1/14/15 in Paris?

Last edited by Danton05; December 14th, 2017 at 08:25 PM.
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Old December 16th, 2017, 09:58 AM   #882
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Originally Posted by Never give up View Post
Article from IRJ, on the automatisation of the Copenhagen S bane net.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=000

There is a minor mistake in the article as the Nivå/Nivaa - Airport train will not run anymore.

As Matias says the intermediate stations between Kokkedal and Hellerup will only have a 30 minute interval as they will be on the Nivå - Køge (Nord) - Næstved line.

I have thought about letting 2 of the 4 hourly Helsingør trains stops at Rungsted Kyst, Vedbæk and Skodsborg so they have a 15 minute interval.
Klampenborg has the S-train service so they might be fine with 30 minutes intervals on the Kystbanen.

That will mean that the schedule gets irregular when the trains hits Hellerup, but if the trains have different destinations on Zealand it doesn't matter that much.
And from Østerport there will also be Øresundstog, and other Regionaltog and Intercity trains so a irregular timetable on this section isn't that obvious.

The only difference is that commuters from Helsingør, Snekkersten, Espergærde and Humlebæk has to choose between 2 slow departures and 2 fast departures.
But its only a few minutes longer.

The commuters from Nivå and Kokkedal will then have 4 slow departures and 2 fast ones.
But here i think frequent trains upweights (is that the word) the infrequent stopping patterns.
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Old January 6th, 2018, 01:29 PM   #883
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The metro plans to expand capacity on the M1 and M2 lines in preperation for the opening of M3 and M4 in 2019.

First up is to redesign the trains so it get fewer seats and more standing room.

They will also reduce headways from 2 minutes to 1,5 minutes in the central core, it means that they will have 36 trains in each direction per hour instead of 30.

This will require 8 additional trainsets.

All this will cost 2 billion kroner but will make room for 290.000 daily passengers, today there is 200.000 and its at max capacity during the morning rush.

http://m.dk/#!/om+metroen/nyheder+og...ere+paastigere


The planned extension to 4 wagons will probably first happen when the trains will be replaced.

There has also been a solution with 5 wagons where the 2 outer wagons only has 1 set of doors closest to the 2nd and 4th wagon.
This will create more space but will be very impractical if the train is full and 1/2 of the passengers needs to move to the other end of the wagon to get off.

The current wagons has 2 set of doors and if they added a 4th it will also had 2 set of doors, its only if they added a 5th wagon that the 1 door thing would become an issue.
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Old January 7th, 2018, 11:42 AM   #884
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Site of the future Nordhavn metro station.



and progress on the temporary terminus of the Nordhavn branch, Orientkaj station. Nice to see the station coming before the redevelopment.

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Old January 7th, 2018, 12:06 PM   #885
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Originally Posted by bongo-anders View Post
They will also reduce headways from 2 minutes to 1,5 minutes in the central core, it means that they will have 36 trains in each direction per hour instead of 30.
A 90 second frequency would be 40 trains per hour. Im not entirely sure, but I think the announcement is saying 36 trains will be able to provide 1,5 min headways because back and forth through the system is less than an hour

Quote:
The planned extension to 4 wagons will probably first happen when the trains will be replaced.
They seem to be very reluctant to go down that route, so Im not sure it will even happen then. It seems like it would require a really long period of very limited service to install new platform doors everywhere.
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Old January 7th, 2018, 01:42 PM   #886
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But didn´t they already make room for the 2 outer screen doors when they installed the 6 others.
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Old January 7th, 2018, 03:20 PM   #887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bongo-anders View Post
But didn´t they already make room for the 2 outer screen doors when they installed the 6 others.
They did indeed. 4 car train fit, no problem.

But they would have to take down the glass screen and rearrange the fixed panels (emergency doors) and the automatic doors to match the door locations on the new trains.

The train would also be stopping elsewhere, so there is likely signalling and software change that would need implemented and tested and deployed.

There is no doubt in my mind they will get there, but ripping out seats is also necessary and cheaper. As is implementing the changes for 1,5m headways. So this is the low hanging fruit for now. 4 car trains when this runs out of steam, and they need more.

(I guess it's also possible that if M6+ happen that we will never need 4 car trains on m1 and m2. We will see.
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Old January 7th, 2018, 03:22 PM   #888
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It is actually likely easier to deploy 5 car trains than 4 car trains as it requires less modification of the entire platform door assembly.
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Old January 7th, 2018, 06:41 PM   #889
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Silly me, I thought that it was just a thing where they installed 2 doors extra on each side of the platform, but it seems like that there is a little bit more to it :-)
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Old January 7th, 2018, 06:57 PM   #890
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Local forum member NGU ans Stonodk has posted some before and after pictures of Copenhagen and some of them is focussed on public transport so I thought that I will show them here.

Ørestad Boulevard with Vestamager station on the right.







Before it was Carlsberg Brewery and now its a city with its on S-train station.




Before it was 2 S-train lines passing over a freight line.
The upper S-train line in the picture is now line M1 and M2 of the Copenhagen metro and the freight line is now S-train line F.
The other S-train line is line C and H
The station is called Flintholm.





Just a kilometre west of Flintholm is Vanløse that is terminus for M1 and M2 and a major stop on S-train line C and H

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Old January 7th, 2018, 09:00 PM   #891
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dysharmonica View Post
It is actually likely easier to deploy 5 car trains than 4 car trains as it requires less modification of the entire platform door assembly.
The doors are equally spaced, so there should be no difference.
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Old January 8th, 2018, 04:55 PM   #892
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Originally Posted by korbendallas View Post
The doors are equally spaced, so there should be no difference.
Good point -- my worry is whether the doors on a 4 car trains line up with the current doors when the train stops centered on the platform.

I sort of wish they just (from the get go) had the train line up with the start of the platform -- adding 4th cars would have been easier.

Igor
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Old January 8th, 2018, 05:01 PM   #893
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dysharmonica View Post
Good point -- my worry is whether the doors on a 4 car trains line up with the current doors when the train stops centered on the platform.

I sort of wish they just (from the get go) had the train line up with the start of the platform -- adding 4th cars would have been easier.

Igor
The spacing between the doors are the same on the trains, no matter if they are on the same car or on different cars. So whether the doors on the train will line up with the platform screen doors does not matter with the number of cars in the train.

Last edited by loefet; January 8th, 2018 at 05:07 PM.
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Old January 8th, 2018, 06:15 PM   #894
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dysharmonica View Post
Good point -- my worry is whether the doors on a 4 car trains line up with the current doors when the train stops centered on the platform.

I sort of wish they just (from the get go) had the train line up with the start of the platform -- adding 4th cars would have been easier.

Igor
For reference:
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Old January 9th, 2018, 08:48 PM   #895
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Quote:
Originally Posted by korbendallas View Post
For reference:
Thank you! I was gonna find that diagram, you saved me a bunch of work looking for it.

So -- they were not entirely dumb in designing this.The central doors all remain aligned as they add car to the train, so all that is needed is to add 2 doors at the ends of the station.

So that seems easy, but I suspect 2 things remain complicated for them.

1) Where do the trains stop (4 cars need to stop further ahead than 3 cars.
2) If there is a mixed-length fleet, the station / doors need/s to know the train length and only open some of the doors some of the time.

I suspect at least one of these things is not fully built into the current technology and is not easy.

NB: they seem worried about the end pieces sticking out of the station .... I find that barely problematic given the extremely low capacity of these sections with the heavy focus on seating. I think they should just go for it and switch to 5 car trains when the time comes.

Here are my quick mockups:
4 car train



5 car train
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Old January 9th, 2018, 09:10 PM   #896
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dysharmonica View Post
So -- they were not entirely dumb in designing this.The central doors all remain aligned as they add car to the train, so all that is needed is to add 2 doors at the ends of the station.
Somehow i feel that even that will be more complicated than we think, considering how long and annoying was the process of installing the platform screen doors on overground stations, requiring reinforcement of the platforms and all that I really hope the they have given more thought to the design of the glass walls underground, so it will be easier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dysharmonica View Post
So that seems easy, but I suspect 2 things remain complicated for them.

1) Where do the trains stop (4 cars need to stop further ahead than 3 cars.
2) If there is a mixed-length fleet, the station / doors need/s to know the train length and only open some of the doors some of the time.
I think the second one should not be a problem, since sometimes either the train door or platform door is out of order and the system can find out not to open the corresponding door.
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Old January 10th, 2018, 08:10 PM   #897
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I do want to repeat that problems like these crop up time and time again with new systems ... especially those that are successful and struggle for capacity quickly, so I can hardly fault them for not predicting everything
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Old January 11th, 2018, 12:23 PM   #898
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Yeah, a system that becomes successful does after some years tend to look like the original system was way under-dimensioned. Doesn't China have many subway lines built to a smaller size than pretty much all being built now?
Stockholm almost built our metro for 4-car trains. There was even one more station planned for the inner city that was scrapped to fit the longer trains. Now 60 years later the idea of 4 car trains (instead of 8 cars) sounds ridiculous for our system.

Given that Copenhagen also has the extensive S-tåg system and the metro is built so it could go from 3 to 4 or even 5 car trains... The metro seems to me to be more future proof than what I'd expect from any system.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 12:39 PM   #899
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Copenhagen Light Rail made a decisive step forward today by announcing vendors for all part of construction, train supplier, and operator.



http://www.dinletbane.dk/nyheder/nyh...-taettere-paa/

https://ing.dk/artikel/nu-faar-koebe...liarder-209859

As a reminder, the copendhagen light rail will form a half-ring through the suburbs, connecting 5 different radial S-tog lines, and in the future will jump inwards to connect with termini of metro lines. Where S-tog is the commuter train, Metro is the central-city transport, Letbane will form the transportation backbone among the suburbs.

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Old January 11th, 2018, 03:26 PM   #900
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MOVIA the Capital region's bus and ferry operator is proposing a massive redesign of the bus network to adjust to the Cityring metro opening.

The proposal is in public consultation for a few more weeks. Cityring is due to open in summer 2019.

https://www.moviatrafik.dk/nyt-bynet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4S86cvWnqo

full map

source [PDF]: https://www.moviatrafik.dk/media/632..._nyt_bynet.pdf
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