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Old September 2nd, 2010, 09:30 PM   #121
onetwothree
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It sounds awesome if it could work, I'm just not sure it would. The tunnel would end up nearly twice as long as the current ěresund connection (okay maybe not quite, but it would be long), and if it's going to work exclusively as a shuttle between two stations (ěsterport and some station in Malm÷) I'm not convinced it would be worth the investment.
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Old September 2nd, 2010, 10:51 PM   #122
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Old September 2nd, 2010, 10:52 PM   #123
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As it is now, i wont be an investment of profit. But i believe in the future. 20-15 years ago nobody believed that people in Malm÷ would work in copenhagen, and vice versa. But it is quite common know. So if Scandinavian continuous to work closer together, and thereby the border between Copenhagen and Malm÷ getting smaller, i think there would be something about it.

And maybe an express, and a regular train on the line? One from central Malm÷ to N°rreport, at least CPH central or ěsterport, and then one with several stop in Malm÷ and stops on an existing line in Copenhagen. This would affect that you could get from down town to down town really quick, and getting the people on the line along also.

But an upgrade of the trains would be good. As it is now, the existing trains can only drive 80 km/h. So either make a special fast train, (which of course match the existing trains in fit) or make them all faster, and then every train set would be able to use in Íresund line.
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Old September 5th, 2010, 08:20 AM   #124
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High-speed subway! Going up to 100mph
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Old September 5th, 2010, 09:51 PM   #125
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How many people are currently commuting daily between both cities? How many of them use the train and how many use the car?

I think a shuttle service on the existing railline between both cities should be enough. I suppose It could also run every 10 minutes and carry more passengers per train than a metro. In addition the schedule can be synchronised to the connecting trains and metro in Copenhagen. Which kind of trainsets are in use?
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Old September 5th, 2010, 10:49 PM   #126
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There is service every ten minutes between the two cities, and it is often packed full. According to Nordsk Rňd, there were 18,000 commuters a day between Malm÷ and Cph in 2008, and it was expected to grow to 46,000 by 2017, mainly people from Malm÷ to Cph.

Part of the problem with the current connection is that capacity isn't that high, especially right now as Malm÷ is messed up because of the City Tunnel project http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Tunnel,_Malm%C3%B6, and there have been a lot of problems on the connected Coast Railway in Denmark. A new connection between Helsing°r and Helsingborg has been talked about for a while to help solve this.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 01:24 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milwaukee-k°benhavn View Post
There is service every ten minutes between the two cities,
The trains from Copenhagen KPH to the airport and Malmo left every twenty minutes when I was there a couple of weeks ago. 03, 23 and 43 past the hour.

Copenhagen Airport details: http://www.cph.dk/CPH/UK/MAIN/Parkin...port/By+Train/

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Old September 6th, 2010, 02:19 AM   #128
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I think the trains go from central Copenhagen to the airport every 10 min, but only every 20 min to Malm÷.
And can't this be solved with longer trains, or better signal systems?

Although I find it very interesting if the Metro can expand to Malm÷. It would be very cool if the cities had a common Metro system
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Old September 6th, 2010, 02:43 AM   #129
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According to german wikipedia the Íresundstag crosses the bridge every 20 minutes, at night once per hour.
I see that these trainsets are used


Wouldn't it be possible to reduce the intervals to 10 minutes and use doubledecker trains instead?
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Old September 6th, 2010, 03:14 AM   #130
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The frequency is every 20 minutes until the City Tunnel in Malm÷ has been taken in operation in December this year (will be every 10 minutes after this). Basically the City Tunnel is part of the Íresund Bridge infrastructure but construction didn't start until 2005 or so. Copenhagen bound trains from Malm÷ C have been sharing tracks with cargo trains on a ring around Malm÷ since the bridge was opened. The ring will be used as part of a local "S-Bahn" service in Malm÷ once the City Tunnel is completed.

However, there are currently 10 minute intervals during rush hours between Copenhagen Central Station and Malm÷ South.

The rising number of commuters (approaching 30.000) and the fact that the bridge is becoming a bottle neck as cargo train operations are increasing (especially with a Fehmarn Belt Bridge) and the fact that it will be used by Sweden's future HSR service as well. A new link will be needed sooner or later, and a dedicated commuter line between downtown Malm÷ and downtown CPH is not a bad idea. However if it should be an integrated part of the CPH Metro, I don't know.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 05:35 AM   #131
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OK, I think I understand the situation now.
In my opinion not the metro should go to Malm÷ via dedicated line, but the S-Bahn due to higher capacity. Several S-Bahn lines could start at Malm÷ central station and branch out in Copenhagen to directly bring the people to their respective workplaces. By this the bundled S-Bahn lines would offer a metro-like service on a dedicated track between both cities.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 09:23 AM   #132
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That's a good idea. I believe the S-Tog has higher top speed than the Metro, too (allowing for faster crossing of Íresund).
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Old September 6th, 2010, 10:10 PM   #133
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The S-trains has a max speed at 120 km/hour. Mostly they only run at 80 km/h. There has been talked about upgrade this, but the REALLY outdated signal system would have to be upgrade too, and this would cost more than upgrading the train, i've read somewhere.

I thought about this idea too, but remember that the s-trains are much broader, so it would require a larger tunnel, and thereby a bit higher construction cost. But it would make a faster, and much more comfortable connection.

I believe that the s-bahn in malm÷ would be using the power line infrastructure which is standard on the rails in northern europe. But the s-trains in CPH use a much lower voltage. So, if these two systems should be connected, either malm÷ should "downgrad" or DSB should use a higher voltage on the s-trains.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 10:34 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alseimik View Post
The S-trains has a max speed at 120 km/hour. Mostly they only run at 80 km/h. There has been talked about upgrade this, but the REALLY outdated signal system would have to be upgrade too, and this would cost more than upgrading the train, i've read somewhere.

I thought about this idea too, but remember that the s-trains are much broader, so it would require a larger tunnel, and thereby a bit higher construction cost. But it would make a faster, and much more comfortable connection.

I believe that the s-bahn in malm÷ would be using the power line infrastructure which is standard on the rails in northern europe. But the s-trains in CPH use a much lower voltage. So, if these two systems should be connected, either malm÷ should "downgrad" or DSB should use a higher voltage on the s-trains.
Firstly, the S-trains has a max speed of 140 km/h, but the stretches are all limited to 120 km/h. It's also true that they often don't go above 80 km/h, the reason is that the stations are very close on the system.
It's false that the signal system is outdated. The S-trains runs on a middle thing between ATC and ERTMS. Most of the signals an S-train passes is set at "conditional stop", which for an S-train with working HKT (The S-train system ATC) means nothing. The only stretch without HKT is north of Lyngby.
The S-train will be upgraded to ERTMS sometime in the future.

About "fritrumsprofilen", the S-train system uses the same profile as the rest of the Danish lines. I could imagine that the metro has smaller clearance, though.

There is no "standard voltage" in northern Europe. The only reason Sweden, Norway and Germany use a different voltage, is because their lines were electrified earlier than the Danish lines. The 15k 16 2/3'rds hz voltage is a VERY outdated system, whereas the Danish 25k 50hz voltage is the new international standard.

Last edited by Spikespiegel; September 6th, 2010 at 10:47 PM.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 04:19 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spikespiegel View Post
Firstly, the S-trains has a max speed of 140 km/h, but the stretches are all limited to 120 km/h. It's also true that they often don't go above 80 km/h, the reason is that the stations are very close on the system.
It's false that the signal system is outdated. The S-trains runs on a middle thing between ATC and ERTMS. Most of the signals an S-train passes is set at "conditional stop", which for an S-train with working HKT (The S-train system ATC) means nothing. The only stretch without HKT is north of Lyngby.
The S-train will be upgraded to ERTMS sometime in the future.
This is some bullshit. Firstly, the S-trains cannot drive more than 120 kmph. Source: http://www.nwe.siemens.com/denmark/i...g-SA-DSB-2.pdf

Second of all: Have you ever driven with the S-trains? There are constantly signal trouble! The signaling at Hiller°d station is from 1912!!! How can you say that is not outdated?
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Old September 7th, 2010, 06:05 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalaha View Post
This is some bullshit. Firstly, the S-trains cannot drive more than 120 kmph. Source: http://www.nwe.siemens.com/denmark/i...g-SA-DSB-2.pdf

Second of all: Have you ever driven with the S-trains? There are constantly signal trouble! The signaling at Hiller°d station is from 1912!!! How can you say that is not outdated?
The pamflet reads "Hastighed 120 km/t", it doesn't say TOP speed. The fourth generation S-trains have a top speed of 140 km/h.

The signalling around Hiller°d IS outdated, but it's the only stretch that uses that old system. Currently, new tracks are laid to Hiller°d and the signalling is being repaired (Albeit, no replaced with the newer system. Banedanmark has decided to not upgrade the stretch, seeing as ERTMS is only a couple of years away).
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Old September 7th, 2010, 06:10 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spikespiegel View Post
The pamflet reads "Hastighed 120 km/t", it doesn't say TOP speed. The fourth generation S-trains have a top speed of 140 km/h.

The signalling around Hiller°d IS outdated, but it's the only stretch that uses that old system. Currently, new tracks are laid to Hiller°d and the signalling is being repaired (Albeit, no replaced with the newer system. Banedanmark has decided to not upgrade the stretch, seeing as ERTMS is only a couple of years away).
1) It is not a pamflet for the railway, but for the trainsets. Since you are so sure, that the trains are able to go 140, PLEASE deliver a source.

2) It is not only at Nordbanen there are signal trouble. Very, very, very often on eg Valby, Enghave, the Central Station and ěsterport there are signal trouble. And as you say is it only being repaired, not replaced, so we agree on that.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 06:38 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalaha View Post
1) It is not a pamflet for the railway, but for the trainsets. Since you are so sure, that the trains are able to go 140, PLEASE deliver a source.

2) It is not only at Nordbanen there are signal trouble. Very, very, very often on eg Valby, Enghave, the Central Station and ěsterport there are signal trouble. And as you say is it only being repaired, not replaced, so we agree on that.
I can't find a source, but I know for a fact that they have a top speed of 140 km/h, but are limited by the stretch speed of 120 km/h. I've seen S-trains reach 127 km/h (The maximum speed the trains ATC will allow the train to reach, before it automatically breaks it).

S-trains doesn't use signals, so I don't buy your story about the signalling troubles. The platform exit signals can show "passing not allowed" and "passing allowed", and if THESE are out of order (which they almost never are), the stretch manager will give his authorisation that the signal can be passed. All other signals are set at "conditional stop", which means that S-trains with working ATC can disregard these, and drive by the cab signal. If you want an example, go to Bernstorffsvej, enter the platform and look at the exit end of the track going towards copenhagen. Here you will have a signal, that will almost constantly show "conditional stop" (two orange lights, set in a diagonal).
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Old September 7th, 2010, 06:48 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spikespiegel View Post
I can't find a source, but I know for a fact that they have a top speed of 140 km/h, but are limited by the stretch speed of 120 km/h. I've seen S-trains reach 127 km/h (The maximum speed the trains ATC will allow the train to reach, before it automatically breaks it).

S-trains doesn't use signals, so I don't buy your story about the signalling troubles. The platform exit signals can show "passing not allowed" and "passing allowed", and if THESE are out of order (which they almost never are), the stretch manager will give his authorisation that the signal can be passed. All other signals are set at "conditional stop", which means that S-trains with working ATC can disregard these, and drive by the cab signal. If you want an example, go to Bernstorffsvej, enter the platform and look at the exit end of the track going towards copenhagen. Here you will have a signal, that will almost constantly show "conditional stop" (two orange lights, set in a diagonal).
You apparently know a lot more than I do on this topic, so I apologize for accusing you of telling nonsense. I read for a lecture tomorrow, and the text actually said that "a train have to be able to drive 10% faster than the maximum allowed speed of the train", according to the European Committee for standardization 2005.

And a little math: 120 kmph = 33,33 m/s. 33,33*1,1 = 38,89 m/s = 140 kmph.

But it is apparently not just in Denmark, but in all of the European Union.

But again, sorry....
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Old September 7th, 2010, 06:49 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spikespiegel View Post
The pamflet reads "Hastighed 120 km/t", it doesn't say TOP speed. The fourth generation S-trains have a top speed of 140 km/h.

The signalling around Hiller°d IS outdated, but it's the only stretch that uses that old system. Currently, new tracks are laid to Hiller°d and the signalling is being repaired (Albeit, no replaced with the newer system. Banedanmark has decided to not upgrade the stretch, seeing as ERTMS is only a couple of years away).
Wikipedia says 120 km/h:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-tog

DSB OWN site says 120 km/h:
http://www.dsb.dk/Om-DSB/Virksomhede...drift/Togsaet/
its the litra sa-sb-sc-sd

So shouldn't we just agree that its 120 km/h?
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