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Old November 18th, 2011, 02:04 AM   #441
Tepes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atruxo View Post
So, I ask if israeli government is investing in motorways, roads, etc in syrian lands. It's a waste of money, because later or sooner, will have to return that land.
The same in the case of palestinians. I think they are happy, because you are building so much on their land, so will have a developed nice country when they get the independence.


Sorry if I ask some embarrasing questions, but here in Europe we are really worried about these problems.

Speak for yourself. Some of us Europeans think Israel should keep all territories it has won in a war started by others. Syria & Palestine have about as much right to the occupied territories today as Germany has to Kaliningrad/Koenigsberg. And I don't see any Germans firing rockets across the Baltic into Russia either.

As you said yourself, Israel does a much better job regarding infrastructure than all neighboring Arab countries, even though a lot of Israel's economic surplus must be diverted into its army because of the threats posed by its neighbors; why would you want the Palestinian Arabs and those living in the Golan Heights to have the poverty of an Arab regime over the prosperity of the Israeli one?
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Old November 18th, 2011, 09:57 AM   #442
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atruxo View Post
I'd like to solve a series of transport-related issues in Israel:

The highway passes the occupied territories ,West Bank or the Golan Heights, or stand on the green line. If they pass the other hand, is indicated on the signs that you are entering occupied territory or something?
Who is making plans to decide where the motorways will be built? Does the occupying authority
consult with PA, Sirian government, or UN?
Another question concerns the issue of segregated public transport in the territories. Really can not take buses people who are not settlers? It appeared that a story today in which 6 Palestinians stopped because they wanted to get on a bus to settlers. Thanks.
Assuming that you're not just here to try to start an argument, I'll give you the best answer I can:

- There are no major highways in the Golan Heights, so it's irrelevant to argue about it.

- When you enter the West Bank in your car, you go through what looks exactly like a border crossing between two countries. Examples are on Road 443 near Modiin and on Road 1 (I think) near Maaleh Adumim.

- Public transport in the territories is not segregated. However, Palestinians do need authorization to enter Israel (and, in some cases, vice versa). This would undoubtedly remain the case even if Palestine were an independent country, although presumably the actual procedures for obtaining authorization (work permits or whatever) would be different.

I think it would be better to limit discussion on this forum to roads rather than politics. There are plenty of other places to talk about that.
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Old November 18th, 2011, 09:59 AM   #443
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Quote:
Some of us Europeans think Israel should keep all territories it has won in a war started by others.


O.K. You are joking! So UN should disappear. Get back to the stone age. The more power you have the more right you are.

Quote:
Syria & Palestine have about as much right to the occupied territories today as Germany has to Kaliningrad/Koenigsberg. And I don't see any Germans firing rockets across the Baltic into Russia either.
Germany hasn't got nuclear ICBM, Russia has. Powerful reason.
And Israel also is the only nuclear power of the región. This gives you a lot of reason.

Quote:
As you said yourself, Israel does a much better job regarding infrastructure than all neighboring Arab countries, even though a lot of Israel's economic surplus must be diverted into its army because of the threats posed by its neighbors; why would you want the Palestinian Arabs and those living in the Golan Heights to have the poverty of an Arab regime over the prosperity of the Israeli one?
I don't know, but people of Golan heights, those that lived ther for centuries, the original people, (they are syrians, do you know?) rejected israeli passport.


Thanks RoadUser, you gave me answers, that's what I asked for.
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Old November 19th, 2011, 12:46 PM   #444
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Please stop your propaganda and your zionist stuff. It's not the right place. Here we post pics and discuss about roads and highways.
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Old December 17th, 2011, 05:22 AM   #445
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Hey folks, I was watching a little bit of drama tonight on the Ayalon Highway traffic cams. It was actually along the north bound lanes of Highway 1, near the interchange with Highway 461 (Derech Kibuts Galuyot - דרך קיבוץ גלויות).

It appeared to be a single vehicle accident, relatively minor, but eventually the driver was arrested and placed in a police van. The female passenger was quite upset at this, putting up a fight of her own, with the police and emergency crew, so they man-handled her into the back of another police car and drove off. All this play-by-play, with close-ups etc, were courtesy of the operators of the, normally not so interesting, traffic camera number 1, of the Ayalon Highway system ~> http://www.ayalonhw.co.il/camera/camera.asp?perCamera=1

Any local news of this incident...which has technically become an international one, since I was watching it live?

~BG
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Old December 18th, 2011, 11:48 PM   #446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atruxo
... indicated on the signs that you are entering occupied territory or something?
The BBC Top Gear christmas special from last year (i think) has some footage of the situation at the Jordan/Israeli border. Look for the "Middle East Special" episode.

Also, I would like to add that the recent happenings in the middle east hopefully will put an end to all unfinised business between the involved countries in the area. Not tomorrow, not next year, but maybe 10 years ahead. And that the discussions regarding anything other than infrastructure is dealt with somewhere else, however interresting they might be.
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Old December 20th, 2011, 12:01 AM   #447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devo View Post
The BBC Top Gear christmas special from last year (i think) has some footage of the situation at the Jordan/Israeli border. Look for the "Middle East Special" episode.

Also, I would like to add that the recent happenings in the middle east hopefully will put an end to all unfinised business between the involved countries in the area. Not tomorrow, not next year, but maybe 10 years ahead. And that the discussions regarding anything other than infrastructure is dealt with somewhere else, however interresting they might be.
Unfortunately (for many Syrians), a large chunk of that episode has to be viewed in a different light, than when it was first aired . Nice segment on (mainly northern) Israel in that one.

~BG
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Old January 26th, 2012, 07:03 PM   #448
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The 2nd stage of Highway 22 in the north (the Krayot Bypass) is now being surfaced. The first segment will open to traffic in about 6 months, and the complete road will be done by the end of the year.

The total length of this section will be about 14 km, and is expected to alleviate traffic congestion through the various Krayot on the way between Haifa and Acre (the Krayot are kind of like suburbs of Haifa).

Project cost: 2 billion NIS (about $530 million)

More information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_22_%28Israel%29

Progress image:
http://img2.timg.co.il/forums/1_158948437.jpg

Path of section:
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Old April 24th, 2012, 07:34 AM   #449
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Google Street View is now available in Haifa, Tel Aviv, and Jerusalem .
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Old July 21st, 2012, 11:31 AM   #450
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If you want to see more about the current Highways and what they connect you should really check out Openstreetmap, as they map the highways/ expressways as soon as a route it published.
It is a lot more detailed that the maps the construction sides provide.

For example the extension north of Tel Aviv of Highway 20:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=32...om=15&layers=M

Or Highway 9 that supposed to connect Highway 2 south of Hadera to Highway 6.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=32...om=14&layers=M


If you follow or construction sides and the proposed changes on and beside the expressway 4 north of Tel Aviv you will see that expressway 4 will get a probably Highway classification in the future. No traffic lights supposed to be on expressway 4.

Great work Israel.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 01:31 PM   #451
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Openstreetmap wants to change their street classification for all Israeli roads.
As you can imagine it is not very easy to find a rule for every street.

In Openstreetmap they have 6 road classifications that are important:
motorway, trunk, primary, secondary, tertiary and residential.

As several members of this forum do know a lot of the Israel road system it would be great to hear your feedback.

###############################################################################

First rule for numbered roads: It doesn't count the amount of digits but the color of the sign!


=> MOTORWAY (Blue sign)- all freeways - National roads and Inter-City roads.
Normaly they have one digit (example road 2) or two digits (example road 20).
As a exception they could have also three digits (example road 431).
Speed limit is 110 km/h if no sign defines something lower.



=> TRUNK (Red sign) - all expressways.
Expressways in Israel could look very much like a freeway.
Normaly they have two digits in the sign (example road 10).
Speed limit is 100 km/h if no sign defines something lower.
To avoid editing wars it always counts the color of the sign. If its blue it counts as freeway. If its red it counts as expressway.



=> PRIMARY (Green sign) - all regional roads.
Normaly they have three digits in the sign (example road 412).
Speed limit is 90 km/h if no sign defines something lower.



=> SECONDARY (Brown/ Black sign) - all regional roads.
Normaly they have four digits in the sign (example road 4111).
Priority over other crossing roads (the other roads have a stop sign)
Speed limit is 80 km/h if no sign defines something lower.


[Exception per Eric22 request]: very large urban roads that are unnumbered (generally around 1 per 100000 inhabitants). Roads that are more important for routing connections that a normal tertirary road.



TERTIARY - all importand (connection-) roads (no colored sign) .
Priority over other crossing roads (the other roads have a stop sign)
Speed limit is 80 km/h if no sign defines something lower.



RESIDENTIAL - residential roads where people live on (no colored sign).
Lower priority over other crossing tertiary roads
Speed limit is 60 km/h if no sign defines something lower.
In urban there is a general speed limit of 50 km/h


###############################################################################

The original discussion happens here http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewt...260104#p260104, but as I don't want to refer you into another forum you are welcome to hit the reply button and help us finding a solution here.

Every feedback is very welcome. Specially about the speed limit as the rule is not enough check.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 01:43 PM   #452
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My main pet peeve about Open Street Map is that motorway-like expressways are not shown properly from the rest of the trunk roads. You have to zoom in very far to see it's a 2x2, grade-separated motorway-like road that often functions like a motorway too. Google Maps does this better, although it doesn't distinguish between motorways and expressways (and in some cases even 2+1 roads).

Another annoying thing is that OSM only uses the endomyms. While I support this, this is problematic when the place in question has a different writing script, such as Hebrew.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 02:59 PM   #453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
My main pet peeve about Open Street Map is that motorway-like expressways are not shown properly from the rest of the trunk roads.

You have to zoom in very far to see it's a 2x2, grade-separated motorway-like road that often functions like a motorway too. Google Maps does this better, although it doesn't distinguish between motorways and expressways (and in some cases even 2+1 roads).
I would say that the motorway is the road 6 and a expressway is the northern part road 4 (near Haifa) is showing up very differently.
Currently all motorways are shown blue and all expressway do look red:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=32...om=14&layers=M

The main question is: what makes the difference between a motorway and a expressway in your opinion. My suggestion is based on the sign of the street. Meaning a motorway has a blue sign and the expressway a red sign. I'm also expecting a different speed limit depending on this definition.

My suggestion posted would mean that all those ways looking red in the moment would get defined as trunk and get colored in green instead. This way we would have a easier to make a difference of the road classification in Israel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Another annoying thing is that OSM only uses the endomyms. While I support this, this is problematic when the place in question has a different writing script, such as Hebrew.
I don't agree. It depends very much on the software you are using to find the correct result. Please check out the nominatum search (http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/) that provides you several results no matter how you write it. To find a Herzl street if you search for Hertzl is depending on the street definition. You would need to add Hertzl to every herzl street to have the correct result. This is not easy but just a matter of time and software.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 03:18 PM   #454
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Maps are used for much more than just locating streets, they are also used to check out the area, the general road network and the position of nearby cities. Open Street Map is completely useless for that if you don't read Hebrew / Arab / Cyrillic etc.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 03:29 PM   #455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Maps are used for much more than just locating streets, they are also used to check out the area, the general road network and the position of nearby cities. Open Street Map is completely useless for that if you don't read Hebrew / Arab / Cyrillic etc.
If you don't read Hebrew you can use one of the services bellow that are showing Latin characters instead of Hebrew.

1. http://toolserver.org/~osm/locale/en...1865&layers=BT
2. http://mapq.st/NauSV1 (only city names)

All the data is Openstreetmap... Its just about the software.
There are a lot of apps out there for smartphones that also use this functionality.

Last edited by davidsch; July 28th, 2012 at 11:09 PM.
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Old August 30th, 2012, 01:21 AM   #456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsch View Post
...
Every feedback is very welcome. Specially about the speed limit as the rule is not enough check.
Hmm, some of the speed limits listed indeed are questionable, since they seem to be somewhat arbitrary and rely on the classification of the road, which has many exceptions and is as such not very relevant.

Unless something has changed, as far as I know, the following are the default speed limit rules in Israel:

Motorway (blue sign): 110 km/h
Intercity (no physical barrier): 80 km/h
Intercity (physical barrier): 90 km/h
Urban: 50 km/h

The number of digits or colour of the road number don't matter (except in the "blue" case, which is officially the colour of motorway signs). Also, I never heard of a 60 km/h default limit anywhere - if it's urban, then it's 50, otherwise, it's 80.

Everything else, I believe, is not related to any actual rule, although I may be wrong if things changed recently.
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Old September 16th, 2012, 04:49 PM   #457
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What I found out is that the numbers do count as the colors do. With the exception that all roads can be made by the government to motorways (meaning a blue sign). So a 3 digits road could have a green sign till it gets classified as motorway and gets a blue sign. All street definitions I found do have relation to the color.

Regarding your speed limits:

As a example against your urban speed limit rule please see the following road in Tel Aviv: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?way=121492367

It has a speed limit of even 70.

So the rule that all urban roads have a speed limit of 50 is simply not correct. Even if the signs at the entrance to Israel show it the way you described it.

But it is very interesting where you got the rule with the intercity roads with and without barriers from. We have still no 100 % fixed rule for the speed limit. But it would be of course great to start somewhere and have a definition in Israel Openstreetmap.
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Old November 6th, 2012, 12:27 AM   #458
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What is the status of the southward extension of Highway 6?
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Old November 18th, 2012, 06:28 AM   #459
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Old December 5th, 2012, 12:16 PM   #460
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Transportation Ministry Issues Tender for Highway 6 Extension

http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=294683

Fair use excerpt:
"The new tender includes the six-kilometer stretch eastwards from Lahavim to Lakiya (section 21). The cost will be NIS 200 million. The new section will extend further southeast from the similar length stretch currently under construction between the Rahat Interchange and the Lahavim Interchange at a cost of NIS 315 million."
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