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Old April 16th, 2011, 02:12 PM   #1101
Axelferis
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Ukraine has not the highest manufacture cost hour average to say that!

I suspect too some corruption to inflate the final invoice.
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Old April 16th, 2011, 09:50 PM   #1102
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The Chinese have a comparative advantage in construction over most countries in terms of cost (cheap labour which Ukraine has) but also, development expertise (China has its own development companies which Ukraine had to contract out to Germans/Turks etc because it does not have that know-how). Do you think that just because a German architecture firm comes to work to Ukraine, it charges Ukrainian fees? Or maybe a construction subcontractor working on the roof is hiring Ukrainian engineers to keep the costs down? No, because foreign firms are there for a reason: to do a highly skilled job that the very few in the world can.

But if people insist on stereotyping, it's futile to try to change their minds.

As has already been stated hundreds of times, including by myself, the cost of the stadium is a multiple of a number of things that don't necessarily always have a positive impact on cost. To reiterate:

1) A reconstruction is always more expensive, especially when it it in a dense urban environment and requires a lot of ground reinforcement work. The fact that the stadium was built by the soviets on "quick sand" is not the fault of this reconstruction.
2) This will be a 70K stadium. Please name a few new stadiums of that capacity built in Europe (no China please) for less than 500-600 million euros.
3) The stadium is located in the center of the city which has not seen a lot of infrastructure work in decades. The stadium is a great opportunity to revitalize/improve the whole neighborhood, and the cost is imbedded in the cost of the stadium.
4) Finally, one has to admit, the initial delays and lack of a clear plan, a scandal with the Taiwanese firm that won the competition originally, and of course, inefficiencies and corruption also add to the cost. But to say that that's the only reason is naive.
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Old April 17th, 2011, 01:39 PM   #1103
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Marseille reconstruction costs under 500 million euros for a ~70k
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Old April 17th, 2011, 04:53 PM   #1104
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Scandal over Olympic Stadium Reconstruction

http://www.whatson-kiev.com/index.ph...n=view&id=9829

http://www.france24.com/en/20110303-...ns-procurement
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Old April 18th, 2011, 01:53 AM   #1105
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Yes I am very sorry for that news, many times in the last 2 years I was hearing that Ukraine will be dropped off for Euro 2012 as a host nation but I hope for the best as there is no much time till 06/2012!
And yes Kiev is the best stadium.
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Old April 18th, 2011, 08:07 AM   #1106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oxyuranus View Post
Corruption is a real threat against modernization of Ukraine
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Old April 18th, 2011, 01:55 PM   #1107
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Corruption is a real threat against modernisation of either Ukraine or Poland. At least a stadium got beautiful, simple form.
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Old April 18th, 2011, 02:48 PM   #1108
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Poland has not got a problem with corruption unlike Ukraine.
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Old April 18th, 2011, 03:52 PM   #1109
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Ukraine should be retired from this euro:

-> i 've heard that liquidators of thchernobyl disaster will see their pension lowered!! Just a scandal!! How can a government could treat HEROES who sacrified their whealth and life for their country and be treated like that

500 millions for a stadium and not able to treat correctly people who enable Ukraine to exist today?

Please i hope UEFA will retire this euro to Ukraine and give it only to poland and germany.
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Old April 18th, 2011, 04:49 PM   #1110
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Most of this information is complete nonsense!

Last edited by Harisson; April 18th, 2011 at 05:11 PM.
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Old April 18th, 2011, 04:51 PM   #1111
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Axelferis, Not for you to decide what country to hold Euro 2012 !

Last edited by Harisson; April 18th, 2011 at 05:10 PM.
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Old April 18th, 2011, 06:35 PM   #1112
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Old April 18th, 2011, 10:55 PM   #1113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
Ukraine should be retired from this euro:

-> i 've heard that liquidators of thchernobyl disaster will see their pension lowered!! Just a scandal!! How can a government could treat HEROES who sacrified their whealth and life for their country and be treated like that

500 millions for a stadium and not able to treat correctly people who enable Ukraine to exist today?

Please i hope UEFA will retire this euro to Ukraine and give it only to poland and germany.

1. information is bs, can't find any prooflink
2. poor language skills do not add to the argument
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Old April 18th, 2011, 11:07 PM   #1114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delfin_pl View Post
Poland has not got a problem with corruption unlike Ukraine.
bullshit
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Old April 19th, 2011, 12:07 AM   #1115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harisson View Post
Most of this information is complete nonsense!
I wouldn't say it's nonsense but rather sensation blown up out of nothing.
When Kolesnikov took office in March 2010 most of objects in Ukraine were in red zone and Lviv stadium was in black (which means impossible to put into operation in time). And in a month he just made public announcement that they would change tender legislation to simplify bureaucratic procedures for EURO objects (including allowance of single participant tenders) and thus gain the time. And in one more month they did it. And there is nothing strange that Ak Engineering was inaugurated contract because it's the only ukrainian firm, which had experience in hi-end stadium construction (they were working at Donbass Arena). So everything is legislative and money aren't washed out of ukrainian economy.

add:
Yup. I have just read second article and it's really full of bullshit

Quote:
According to Leshchenko, one firm called Altcom is making as much as 640 million euros from various road and airport projects, as well as the stadium in Lviv. These roads are among the most expensive in the world. It's not clear who ultimately owns Altcom.
The most expensive road in Ukraine costs 40 mln UAH which is 3.5 mln EUR per km what is nowhere even near to cost of roads in Poland.
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Last edited by orland; April 19th, 2011 at 12:53 AM.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 01:05 AM   #1116
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Report on Euronews
http://www.euronews.net/2011/04/15/u...for-euro-2012/
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Old April 21st, 2011, 06:20 PM   #1117
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Quote:
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Corruption is a real threat against modernisation of either Ukraine or Poland. At least a stadium got beautiful, simple form.
Szatek, corruption is not a problem in Poland now any more than it is in Canada and UK where you probably live. You really seem to hate Poland and enjoy putting it down. Why don't you come back, see the reality and maybe have some children to help our tragic demographics

Anyway, good luck Ukraine!
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Old April 22nd, 2011, 11:55 AM   #1118
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Szatek, corruption is not a problem in Poland now any more than it is in Canada and UK where you probably live. You really seem to hate Poland and enjoy putting it down.
Totally agree, that's why I'm really fed up with generalized comments about Ukraine and Poland put together, as they are two completely different countries, with completely different levels of corruption and economic and political standards. Unfortunately, when there is a talk about corruption, Poland usually has to take the beatings for Ukrainian counterpart and I think that's not fair. Surely, there is some corruption in Poland too, but not so widespread and endemic as in Ukraine. Likewise, Ukraine is still in the game because it has been constantly reminded about the example set by Polish counterpart's transparency and construction performance. That's all I can say.
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Old April 22nd, 2011, 12:30 PM   #1119
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polish trolls have forgotten that if there were no Ukraine in EURO-2012 contest for the host, there were no Poland either, and if you have problem with elementary logics, there were no new stadiums in Poland, there were no 5 billion euros from the EU (investments or credit never mind) and etc. so shut up about corruption in Ukraine and say thanks to Ukraine and Hryhoriy Surkis for giving such dream as EURO and say thanks to European Union for sponsoring EURO at your counry. Ukraine doing all works about EURO by itself, and almost all money for it going from State budget (ukrainian people pokets) and we have not such sweet sponsors as EU.

Last edited by rapone; April 22nd, 2011 at 12:42 PM.
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Old April 22nd, 2011, 01:33 PM   #1120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapone View Post
polish trolls have forgotten that if there were no Ukraine in EURO-2012 contest for the host, there were no Poland either, and if you have problem with elementary logics, there were no new stadiums in Poland, there were no 5 billion euros from the EU (investments or credit never mind) and etc. so shut up about corruption in Ukraine and say thanks to Ukraine and Hryhoriy Surkis for giving such dream as EURO and say thanks to European Union for sponsoring EURO at your counry. Ukraine doing all works about EURO by itself, and almost all money for it going from State budget (ukrainian people pokets) and we have not such sweet sponsors as EU.
No stadium in Poland is constructed by EU money - Warsaw is financed from national budget, rest of the stadiums from regional budgets.

BTW - noone was forcing Poland to join EU and noone is stoping Ukraine from joining EU - we went through tough reforms to join EU and now we benefit - future of Ukraine is in your hands. So far you've chosen closer cooperation with Russia - your choice - your future.

Coming back to corruption - you don't have to be nervous - that's a fact - Ukraine along with such countries like Russia, Albania or Moldova is the most corrupted country in Europe, far far far more corrupted then Poland, which made a huge progress in this area during last 20 years.
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