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Old January 19th, 2010, 11:07 AM   #261
city_thing
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I wonder if this person realises how the HKD$66B will actually help Hong Kong's poor. It's not just going to waste... it's going to increase business activity dramatically, bring in more tourist dollars and investment, pay the wages of thousands of blue collar workers etc.

Massive infrastructure projects are one of the best ways of pumping money directly into the community.

The stupid person doesn't know what they're talking about
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Old January 19th, 2010, 11:49 AM   #262
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The trickle-down effect is quite bad for the working poor though. Yes, it will spur more economic activity (the multiplier effect), but are the less educated poised to gain much from it? Other than low-paying construction jobs during the U/C phase and low-paying maintenance and customer service jobs during the operational phase, these people will still have difficulty making ends meet in an increasingly expensive city, where the income gap is widening. Contrast that to a government-sponsored program directly aimed at helping the poor, like rent subsidy or extending credit to operate your own business, which will likely have a wider impact as it is direct, and not trickle down to those in need.

The key take-away is how as a society, we are safeguarding the interests of the less fortunate, while maintaining our prosperity. This is a fairly new concept in our very capitalist society. It has historically been survival of the fittest and the rich can stamp on the poor as long as it is legal. The shift in values is quite dramatic, although the government seems to be a bit slow in realizing people aren't just purely immersed in economics anymore.
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Old January 19th, 2010, 03:21 PM   #263
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But surely economic development like infrastructure projects will be more effective in promoting social mobility than government handouts? With the right social framework the trickle-down mechanism can be improved. Also, economic development often increases long-term government revenue that can be used for more generous transfer payments and subsidising essentials.
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Old January 19th, 2010, 03:37 PM   #264
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But surely economic development like infrastructure projects will be more effective in promoting social mobility than government handouts? With the right social framework the trickle-down mechanism can be improved. Also, economic development often increases long-term government revenue that can be used for more generous transfer payments and subsidising essentials.
But the next question is why is so much money being spent on an infrastructure project? I think the consensus is this is a good project but whether it is value for money is being questioned.

Helping the disadvantaged can also be facilitated through improving job training and education. These are also direct and effective means.
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Old January 19th, 2010, 05:26 PM   #265
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infrastructure brings long term returns and it's also expansive. Over here in North America we are crying now becuase, for the past 20 years, our governments held the same view that some Hkners are now advocating.

The tax cuts and government handouts were supposed to help the economy in North America has not only left us with some of the worst infrastructure and public transportation systems in the world, but also resulted in overspending and poor financial planning across Canada and the USA.

Becareful what you wish for.


BTW. HK's poor people are the result of its system, which is also the same system that allowed it to flourish. It's called the market economy. Being the freeiest market in the world also means that its poor will be the least cared for. Maybe socialism really is better...
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Old January 19th, 2010, 05:48 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by UD2 View Post


infrastructure brings long term returns and it's also expansive. Over here in North America we are crying now becuase, for the past 20 years, our governments held the same view that some Hkners are now advocating.

The tax cuts and government handouts were supposed to help the economy in North America has not only left us with some of the worst infrastructure and public transportation systems in the world, but also resulted in overspending and poor financial planning across Canada and the USA.

Becareful what you wish for.


BTW. HK's poor people are the result of its system, which is also the same system that allowed it to flourish. It's called the market economy. Being the freeiest market in the world also means that its poor will be the least cared for. Maybe socialism really is better...
HKD 67 billion is quite a huge sum of money to spend on a single railway project. It's very hard to envision the payoff period and whether that will happen during our lifetime.

Social values have evolved past pure capitalism of yesterday to a more socialist and interventionist approach. The heritage movement is a good example of this.
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Old January 19th, 2010, 05:55 PM   #267
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Thank you, hkskyline.

In quite a few European countries, the governments manage the balance between investing in infrastructure projects and the maintaining the welfare of their people alright.

Big corporations in fact have a lot more to do with the current state of the public transportation systems in North America.
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Old January 19th, 2010, 06:03 PM   #268
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It's a good thing that this project is approved now. It's been so long since something like this happened. It's better to act now than wait until the budget will become more expensive. Remember that the budget for such projects in today's standards is still cheap. Plus, the Beijing government shared a large sum for this project which is even better. This project can be scrap today and wait for the next 3 years. It's a good thing that they approved it.

I am pretty sure Hong Kong Administrative Government will not spend such money that can bankrupt the whole Hong Kong region. However, it's time now to improvise and make Hong Kong connect to the mainland in any way especially to the Pearl Delta region. This is the best way to do it.

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Old January 19th, 2010, 06:34 PM   #269
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...It's been so long since something like this happened...

Remember that the budget for such projects in today's standards is still cheap...

Plus, the Beijing government shared a large sum for this project which is even better...

This project can be scrap today and wait for the next 3 years. It's a good thing that they approved it...

... that can bankrupt the whole Hong Kong region...

You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about! For one thing, the government in Beijing has absolutely nothing to do with the financing on the Hong Kong section.

Last edited by aab7772003; January 19th, 2010 at 06:52 PM.
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Old January 19th, 2010, 07:26 PM   #270
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8 billion us dollars is nothing for HK. People are making a big deal of this because of different agendas. It is just power struggle between politicians. How much did HK spend for its airport? How much are they going to spend for the Macau bridge?
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Old January 19th, 2010, 07:56 PM   #271
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Is the HKD 67bn for the section within Hong Kong alone?
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Old January 19th, 2010, 08:08 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
8 billion us dollars is nothing for HK.
Actually, it is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
People are making a big deal of this because of different agendas. It is just power struggle between politicians.
No, it is not.

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How much did HK spend for its airport? How much are they going to spend for the Macau bridge?
You can find the answers online. The cost of the Airport Core Programme was almost the full balance of the Hong Kong treasury at that time.
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Old January 19th, 2010, 11:40 PM   #273
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I know the answers I wrote them in question to make a point. Money is not the real issue.
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Old January 20th, 2010, 01:16 AM   #274
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I know the answers I wrote them in question to make a point. Money is not the real issue.
Money IS a major issue.
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Old January 20th, 2010, 04:43 AM   #275
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It's true Hong Kong's relatively 'small' investment will reap great benefits as the CRH network will be quite big in China itself, and we will be a part of it, but given the technical limitations, it's not really going to give that much time benefit when trains can only run at 200km/h during the HK stretch.

I'm looking at this project with great jealousy while the cultural district next door is still sitting empty, with the great Foster canopy axed because of 'budget' limitations. Really shows how the government takes the importance of our arts scene.
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Old January 20th, 2010, 07:41 AM   #276
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What I still don't understand is why the government is refusing to even entertain the idea of a station in the New Territories, which reduces the utility of the railway for many residents in the area.

The rationale behind ditching the shared option is also not clear at all. The West Rail still has much capacity to spare, and it will not be a bottleneck given that Hong Kong is at the end of the line. Surely someone travelling to Beijing or Shanghai will not be put off by an extra 15 minutes in the HK section.
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Old January 20th, 2010, 01:07 PM   #277
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What I still don't understand is why the government is refusing to even entertain the idea of a station in the New Territories, which reduces the utility of the railway for many residents in the area.

The rationale behind ditching the shared option is also not clear at all. The West Rail still has much capacity to spare, and it will not be a bottleneck given that Hong Kong is at the end of the line. Surely someone travelling to Beijing or Shanghai will not be put off by an extra 15 minutes in the HK section.
The time saving would become much less significant if the station were built outside the city center, resulting in reduced utilization and cost-effectiveness. It is important to note that there would be more business travellers and tourists than local residents using the rail.

The shared option is not feasible because the high-speed train are 3.4m wide while the platforms are designed for 3.1m-wide commuter trains only. Also, the West Rail does not really have much capacity to spare as the commuter trains are already running at 3-minute interval at peak hours, and several large-scale residential properties will be developed around stations along the West Rail in the next couple of years.
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Old January 20th, 2010, 04:54 PM   #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanfan89 View Post
What I still don't understand is why the government is refusing to even entertain the idea of a station in the New Territories, which reduces the utility of the railway for many residents in the area.

The rationale behind ditching the shared option is also not clear at all. The West Rail still has much capacity to spare, and it will not be a bottleneck given that Hong Kong is at the end of the line. Surely someone travelling to Beijing or Shanghai will not be put off by an extra 15 minutes in the HK section.
All of your confusions have been cleared and every question you have is answered. Please stop pretending to ask questions as a way of suggesting your proposal is better.
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Old January 20th, 2010, 04:58 PM   #279
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Some images of the future West Kowloon terminus.











Source:

http://www.hkca.com.hk/seminars/2009_1214seminar.pdf

http://www.hkie-mmnc.org/Conference2...y%20Change.pdf
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Old January 20th, 2010, 05:02 PM   #280
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Nice interiors, looks even better than the airport. Just don't like those irregular shaped buildings on top.
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