TORONTO - Rogers Centre (52,230)

[Alx-D]

I'd love to see Olympic stadium restored to original condition and pop the roof off. Use for athletic championships, concerts, international football matches, and big CFL games. It would take a lot of private funds, I don't think the public will throw another dime at that building.

[SIC]

Originally Posted by isaidso

No, I don't. They both need a lot of money poured into their refurbishment in the same way as happened with Wembley in London. It should be noted that these are both significantly extravagant stadia. The one in Montreal, specifically.

Montreal Olympic Stadium has many problems, but I consider it one of the most spectacular structures ever built on earth. It cost over $1 Billion and is still a building millions of people photograph whether they have an interest in sport or not.

In 2 weeks it will play host to the 96th Grey Cup game and close to 70,000 spectators. It may not be as modern as a long list of stadiums around the world, but it's definitely a stadium worthy of being called Canada's national stadium. You spoke about Canada having a 'national' stadium, not whether they were of a similar calibre to any particular list of yours.

Toronto will have to construct a large stadium with an athletics track if the dream of hosting the Summer Olympics is to be realized. The problem then becomes what to do with the stadium after wards. Apart from the Leafs and TFC, Toronto is a big event town more than it is a big sports town. If something is considered a big deal, they will support it. It is why they don't draw more than 35,000 to football in this town despite a massive population. Torontonians aren't football fans, they are big spectacle fans. If they really loved football, they'd support their local team and build it into something better, like is done everywhere else on this continent.

I dunno if I agree, they seem to love TFC. It's the only team other than LA that sells out all of their games. I guess they just don't like throwball, which makes sense......since Toronto is an immigrant city.

Anyhoo, I find it ironic that the Argos were supposed to have a joint stadium with TFC. Then they backed out when they were offered free rent at the Rogers Center. Then they saw how much of a success TFC is and they proposed sharing BMO.
Although I'm against it, I hate watching soccer teams on fieldturf. Ugh.

[JYDA]

MLSE always gets slagged for being sleezy and ripping off the tax payer with respect to BMO Field but what the Argos tried to do was worse. They backed out with the assumption that the stadium would get built anyway so they thought "hey, why don't we just let everyone else pay for the construction and then when it's all finished we'll slide right back in." Now it's built and they're crying foul and I have zero sympathy. What bugs me is the soccer hating Toronto media that always sides with the Argos because it's a mainstream sport in the city and therefore have "entitlement" above some soccer team they don't like and don't want to have to report on.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by SIC

I dunno if I agree, they seem to love TFC. It's the only team other than LA that sells out all of their games. I guess they just don't like throwball, which makes sense......since Toronto is an immigrant city.

Anyhoo, I find it ironic that the Argos were supposed to have a joint stadium with TFC. Then they backed out when they were offered free rent at the Rogers Center. Then they saw how much of a success TFC is and they proposed sharing BMO.
Although I'm against it, I hate watching soccer teams on fieldturf. Ugh.

In Canada, football means Canadian football, not soccer. My comment refers to Torontonians generally not being fans of gridiron. If they were genuine fans of the game, they'd support the Argonauts and help build the CFL.

That most have little interest in building the one pro football team they have, but would rather watch the big spectacle that is the NFL, suggests that they are drawn not to the sport, but the lights and wanting to be associated with something glamourous.

You see it in baseball as well. Toronto is not a baseball town, they are only drawn to it in large numbers if they are in a pennant race. The only 2 sports that Torontonians are genuine fans of is hockey and soccer. They will support TFC and the Maple Leafs passionately year after year regardless of how weak the teams or league are.

Sure they want to win, but love of these 2 sports brings them out regardless. Football? No. Basketball? No. Baseball? No. They'll only go if it becomes such a big deal that it transcends the sport itself.

[Alx-D]

^ I kinda disagree, Basketball has done well in Toronto, and while soccer is doing well, and I'll love my TFC til death, I'm not so sure about everyone else

[Taller, Better]

Originally Posted by isaidso

You see it in baseball as well. Toronto is not a baseball town, they are only drawn to it in large numbers if they are in a pennant race. The only 2 sports that Torontonians are genuine fans of is hockey and soccer. They will support TFC and the Maple Leafs passionately year after year regardless of how weak the teams or league are.

Sure they want to win, but love of these 2 sports brings them out regardless. Football? No. Basketball? No. Baseball? No. They'll only go if it becomes such a big deal that it transcends the sport itself.

?? Why do you say that? Attendance for the Blue Jays has been steadily going up for quite a number of years. Torontonians love football, but they are not entranced with the CFL. That does not mean they don't watch football, as they are becoming more interested in the NFL.

[Canadian Chocho]

Originally Posted by Alx-D

^ I kinda disagree, Basketball has done well in Toronto, and while soccer is doing well, and I'll love my TFC til death, I'm not so sure about everyone else

Toronto 'til I die!

[El Mariachi]

what are TFC t.v. ratings? How do they compare to the other Toronto teams?

[Canadian Chocho]

Oh in terms of TV ratings we're shit. I don't have the exact figures but it's bad. I'm sure it will slowly improve though.

[El Mariachi]

Originally Posted by Canadian Chocho

Oh in terms of TV ratings we're shit. I don't have the exact figures but it's bad. I'm sure it will slowly improve though.

ah, I see. Any guess to how they compare to the CFL? I had my doubts about comments made earlier about how Toronto is a bigger soccer city then a basketball one. Raptors games I watch always seem to be filled.

[king1010]

Originally Posted by Judge Phillip Banks

ah, I see. Any guess to how they compare to the CFL? I had my doubts about comments made earlier about how Toronto is a bigger soccer city then a basketball one. Raptors games I watch always seem to be filled.

toronto is a huge soccer city.. it is more of a soccer city then a raptors city.. when referring to soccer i mean.. in europe and england... when world cup or euro comes around every 4 years the city really shows its love for soccer... having said that the raptors are probably more popular than tfc

[Canadian Chocho]

I personally think if TFC start winning, a lot of people will jump on the boat.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

?? Why do you say that? Attendance for the Blue Jays has been steadily going up for quite a number of years. Torontonians love football, but they are not entranced with the CFL. That does not mean they don't watch football, as they are becoming more interested in the NFL.

If you've lived in a town that loves a particular sport, you'll notice a huge difference between it and Toronto. In a metro of 6 million people, it's not hard to get 30,000 people out to anything. It's a mistake to simply see a stadium with 32,000 fans in the stands and assume a city is into a certain sport. Green Bay gets 75,000 to see the Packers and has 170,000 on the waiting list for season's tickets. They live and breathe the Packers. It might not be a healthy environment, but it's laughable to argue that Toronto is comparable. Besides the Leafs, Toronto is no where close to being a sports town.

People don't talk baseball, basketball, or football in this town. The average citizen isn't aware of the latest happenings of the Blue Jays , Raptors, or Argonauts. Go to Chicago, and you'll notice a huge difference. In Chicago, you pick an allegiance to local teams regardless of personal interest.

My friend Andy isn't into sports, but wears a Bull's cap. I asked him why and he said it's just what you do when you live there. If you want to socialize with your co-workers its a good idea to follow at least one of the teams. It's difficult to engage socially without talking about the Bulls, Bears, White Sox, Cubs, or Blackhawks. Chicago is a sports town. Toronto only feels that way regarding the Leafs, and to a growing degree, TFC.

Torontonians definitely do not love football. It's ludicrous to assert such a thing when they've totally abandoned the only team they have. You get what you support and they certainly don't support this sport and help build it into something great. People that love a sport do these things. They support, nurture, and pour their energies into it.

Torontonians are entranced by the glitz, glamour, and spectacle of the NFL. People who actually have a love for a sport will even go watch high school teams. People in Ohio love football. People in Saskatchewan love football. Even people in Halifax love football. They don't even have a pro team and come out in force to watch football games. Ontario? Sorry, they don't support the sport of football, but are attracted to the spectacle of a brand called the NFL. That's a huge difference.

I really have to just roll my eyes when Torontonians say they're big football fans. That's an utter joke to me, and most of Canada. Go to Saskatchewan, Ohio, or West Texas if you want to see what cities into football look like. And the argument that Toronto is a big city with lots of diversions doesn't wash either. Melbourne supports 9 football teams out of the 16 teams in the Australian Football League. 9! We can barely manage 1. An entire national football league is built on the backs of one Australian city 60% the size of Toronto!

2008 average attendance for Melbourne football clubs:

Collingwood Magpies 42,498
Essendon Bombers 41,947
Hawthorn Hawks 41,436
Carlton Blues 39,360
North Melbourne Kangaroos 32,600
Richmond Tigers 30,820
St. Kilda Saints 30,063
Melbourne Demons 29,619
Western Bulldogs 28,306


Toronto Argonauts 29,189 For a city of 6 million that's beyond pathetic!

Melbourne gets to call itself a supporter of football. Toronto does not. Put another 5 football teams in Toronto that average over 30,000 attendance, and I'll consider changing my mind.

[Looking/Up]

I agree; football is almost completely off the radar for most Torontonians. Hockey (perfect for the winter months) and soccer (perfect for the warmer months) seem to be the two sports that have the most popularity. Hockey has been a constantly popular sport here and is firmly entrenched in the culture. Soccer, however, is gaining popularity to a large degree from the number of immigrants who have moved here from countries where soccer was the sport of choice.
As for the Skydome ( ), I think it's great. The nightlighting is particularly fantastic and is a great focal point. I wonder, as the number of highrises continue to grow in this area, if it will be completely blocked from harbour views?

[Taller, Better]

Isaidso, I won't argue with you as you have decided that the fanbase for sports in Toronto you are not interested in personally is practically non-existent. I invite you to take in a Blue Jays game next summer, or a Raptor's basketball game.
For myself, I see it as healthy and well rounded for a city to have varied cultural interests (the Arts, ballet, music, theatre, etc...) as opposed to everyone being obsessed with one sport, but that is just me. I have never felt a herding instinct, and somewhat dislike being bullied into mandatory civic support for one sport or team, so am quite happy to live with your damnation that Toronto is not a "Sports City".
For all those who claim open air stadiums are the only way to go, it was pouring buckets of rain at the time of this Blue Jays game this past summer, so they simply closed the roof half way through to avoid it.

[isaidso]

I haven't said the fan base is non-existent. I've said it is puny for a city this size.

I haven't argued that it's healthy either. It's infinitely better to have a well balanced and varied cultural interests in a city. Toronto does, but it doesn't get to call itself a sports town. We're not. We've been through these arguments before. Being a city that cares for a sport and whether it is healthy are two entirely different issues.

People talk about the Leafs. The other teams? It's not water cooler chatter each day from one end of the city to the other. I didn't say it was healthy, but that's what a sports town feels like. Remember when the Blue Jays won the World Series? If Toronto was a baseball town, the Blue Jays would be front and centre like that regardless of their win-loss column.

I've lived in cities that get to call themselves fans of a particular sport. They certainly don't look like Toronto. I can guarantee you that. In Toronto you have lots of options, but you're certainly not going to get swept up in any sports mania surrounding a team in Toronto unless they are the Leafs, or the team is close to winning something. Support based on win-loss column means one is attracted to spectacle, not the actual sport.

I go to Blue Jays games all the time. 32,000/game in a city of 6 million? It's not just attendance at games, its the % of the population that actively follow these sports. I can walk down my street, and probably only 1 in 10 follow any of our teams with the exception of the Leafs. Toronto is a sports lovers 'Siberia.'

[Taller, Better]

Ok, well the crown of Sports Obsessed can be given to Melbourne or Halifax, or Regina and I am quite cool with that. I don't value my city's worth by figuring out the % of people who herded to any particular sport any more than I value my national pride by weighing and counting Olympic medals.

[isaidso]

Fair enough. It's not important to most Torontonians. I'd just rather call a spade a spade. Torontonians like to think of their city as a sports lovers paradise, but it's not. Take it from one who has to travel 2000 km just to get my fix. Sports fanaticism has many negatives, but I certainly miss aspects of it that just aren't available to me in this city.

When you love a sport, it's nice being in a sea of people who share your enthusiasm and you're not even in a stadium, but just walking down the street. The World Cup is a good example of how a whole city being caught up in support of a team can add to the atmosphere of a city.

You may not agree, but I find Toronto a more exciting place during World Cups. It's not about judging a city's worth by support for sports, but that kind of enthusiasm adds to the excitement of a city. Toronto during the World Series run was yet another example. Toronto was fun during those pennant runs. I wish Toronto was like that more often with more sports all year round.

[Taller, Better]

Sure sports is part of the mix. Yes it is fun during big Cup finals. And nothing is more fun than winning a cup!! No one will disagree with that. I suppose we mix in different circles, as most people I know would classify our city as sports mad; but they would be happy that there is a broad mix of sports here to go watch if they are interested in that. Sports are important, but they are only one facet of a well rounded city. If sports is the only yardstick to measure the worth of a city then Vancouver and Montreal are also miserable failures... Take cities like London, Paris and New York. Sports are very important, but only as part of a broader cultural mix. Many Londoners love their football, just as many Torontonians love their hockey.... but there is one hell of a lot more to London than just one sport.
By the way, I suppose we all have different definitions of what constitutes being a good "sports town". To me it would require supporting teams not only when they win (which is easy) but also through the lean times when they are not the one team in the league who wins. Secondly, a good sports town should be able to embrace more than just one or two sports, but have a well rounded interest and teams of different types of sports. Otherwise a town might be a good "Football Town", or a good "Hockey Town", but not necessarily a good town for "Sports". In this way I would consider a person a better Sports fan if he/she takes an interest in a wide variety of sports, and doesn't just live and breathe one team of one sport. Likewise I don't consider a person who will only drink Chardonnay to be a true wine aficionado!

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

By the way, I suppose we all have different definitions of what constitutes being a good "sports town". To me it would require supporting teams not only when they win (which is easy) but also through the lean times when they are not the one team in the league who wins. Secondly, a good sports town should be able to embrace more than just one or two sports, but have a well rounded interest and teams of different types of sports. Otherwise a town might be a good "Football Town", or a good "Hockey Town", but not necessarily a good town for "Sports". In this way I would consider a person a better Sports fan if he/she takes an interest in a wide variety of sports, and doesn't just live and breathe one team of one sport. Likewise I don't consider a person who will only drink Chardonnay to be a true wine aficionado!

This paragraph sums up what I'm trying to convey. Toronto supports the Leafs and TFC, win or lose, but that's about it. We're a great Leafs town and a great soccer town, but not a great sports town. If you love sports, but not the Leafs, your options are limited. It's TFC or travel to another city that's into the sport you like.

I love basketball and football, but to enjoy the type of enthusiasm soccer and Leafs people get to enjoy in this city, I have to leave Toronto for Halifax or Regina. Basketball and football are hardly fringe sports. If this was the sports paradise that locals think it is, I wouldn't have to leave the city to get my fix.

Take football! The national college football championships are tomorrow. I wonder how many people in Toronto are planning to attend or watch it on television. Not only will they not know who is playing in the final, they won't know that it's taking place. Real lovers of the game of football will know these things.

I'll probably end up driving solo to Hamilton to watch Western battle Laval. Toronto loves football? The argument for that is so weak. By the way, I think we actually see this issue quite similarly even though it doesn't appear so on the surface. I'll also add that Skydome is great for baseball. My favourite seat is actually upper bowl behind home plate.