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Old April 2nd, 2009, 11:50 PM   #181
hoosier
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Spain certainly doesn't have the worst train system in Western Europe, it has one of the best. In five years, it will have the best HSR system in Europe.
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 12:10 AM   #182
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Look at what's there bestides the high speed lines, and how much of the country is covered outside of major cities.
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 05:16 AM   #183
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It's easier said than done. If you look at the plans for the straightening of the main line in South-central Jylland, they all involve bypassing major cities of Fredericia an Vejle, almost 100 000 people in a country of 5 million. When you consider that railways in DK function largely for commuters, it doesn't make sense to build them like they're used differently.

I've travelled by train all over Europe, and I think we have a relatively well-functioning system. There are definently problems (capacity, some speed issues, outdated trains), but the system is not in the sort of shape where it requires the same major changes that have been made in France or Germany. A TGV or ICE doesn't make sense in DK. Traffic density is much too high to be able to achieve ICE speeds on the existing network, and there is't the room or political/environmental climate to build new TGV-esque corridors. .
I think you're mixing pears and apples in more than one sense. First, comparing DK on the one side with TGV/ICE is, in my view, far off the mark: the ICE concept is actually pretty close to what you advocate - when allowing for the fact that Germany is bigger. The Germans have all along invested in gradual upgrades of the lines, and travel speeds, between neighbouring cities, and been very reluctant to contemplate the bypass of towns of any importance. It seems to me that this is also where you're coming from? It is true, however, that France's TGV network is about connecting distant parts of the country on a point-to-point basis rather than creating a "string of pearls" of small provincial towns in an ever-improving regional network. I took the train from Paris to Marseilles last month: it didn't stop in Lyon - a town of 2.5 million inhabitants. In a country of 60 million this is even more radical than a Danish train not stopping in Vejle!

Secondly, what do commuters have to do with it??? OK, one can argue that it is wasteful to spend money on better IC connections because most of the train travels are short distance. The Brits and the Germans have been in this game for a long time. (Always a good reason for scratching your buttom and doing nothing...) But by similar logics one should never have invested in highways in Denmark. Most of the car traffic is local. I don't think such arguments take us very far. It's not about commuter rails OR fast connections. It is commuter rails AND fast connections. - And, crucially, one should not allow one to get in the way of the other.

We live in the 21st century. If DSB (Danish state railways) cannot transport people the relatively short distance from Copenhagen to Aarhus in less than two hours then DSB is doing a lousy job. As simple as that.
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 06:05 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
We live in the 21st century. If DSB (Danish state railways) cannot transport people the relatively short distance from Copenhagen to Aarhus in less than two hours then DSB is doing a lousy job. As simple as that.
And that is a point...

Now i need about 3 hours to travel form Cph to Aarhus....
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 07:01 PM   #185
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To do Copenhagen - Arhus in two hours the average speed must be more then 160 km/h. And a high speed line between these two cities might be just a bit to expensive to build in a small country like Denmark.
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 09:01 PM   #186
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To do Copenhagen - Arhus in two hours the average speed must be more then 160 km/h. And a high speed line between these two cities might be just a bit to expensive to build in a small country like Denmark.
Momo, I'm not sure if we have a wording problem or a more serious disagreement. Surely, the said high speed line would not be more expensive to build in a small country than in a big country? The BENEFITS in a small country might be smaller and, hence, the costs less easy to justify.
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 10:24 PM   #187
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Yes, it's too expensive.
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 11:33 PM   #188
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Train 20 at Pistoia station (near Ansaldobreda's factory) on 28 March 2009. Here another photo of train 20 at the Brenner Pass (this link will be unavailable in a few weeks).







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Old April 4th, 2009, 08:41 AM   #189
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Thanks, Cocco. So, AnsaldoBreda is still trying? They have until mid-May to deliver the first batch of those so-called IC4 trains and get half a dozen of them approved by the technical regulators. Most railway industry insiders think they'll not manage this...

...but, then again, the Danish state has already paid out most of the money on that contract. If they want it back they'll have to go to court. Italian court! The guys in AnsaldoBreda probably figure they'll stand stronger if they press ahead with their side of the obligation until the last minute of the ultimatum.
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Old April 4th, 2009, 10:48 AM   #190
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AnsaldoBreda has done a lot of errors recently. But I think they are trying to "restore" themselves. It isn't failed, yet.
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Old April 4th, 2009, 04:18 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Thanks, Cocco. So, AnsaldoBreda is still trying? They have until mid-May to deliver the first batch of those so-called IC4 trains and get half a dozen of them approved by the technical regulators. Most railway industry insiders think they'll not manage this...

...but, then again, the Danish state has already paid out most of the money on that contract. If they want it back they'll have to go to court. Italian court! The guys in AnsaldoBreda probably figure they'll stand stronger if they press ahead with their side of the obligation until the last minute of the ultimatum.
Yes. Ansaldobreda still trying. Now they delivery 15 trains, but just 3 are in use....

Info in Danish: http://epn.dk/brancher/transport/lan...cle1653861.ece
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Old April 4th, 2009, 08:21 PM   #192
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Yes. Ansaldobreda still trying. Now they delivery 15 trains, but just 3 are in use....

Info in Danish: http://epn.dk/brancher/transport/lan...cle1653861.ece
OK, let me translate the first couple of paragraphs from the article you cited. Cocco's posting was - I must say - very timely. Apparently the trains he photographed arrived in Denmark two days ago!

"After more than five years' delay DSB has received 15 new IC4-tog from the Italian supplier Ansaldobreda. They are pitched in Århus, but it is not clear whether they will ever be running on Danish tracks.

- The trains we have contracted have arrived to Denmark, but they have not yet been taken in charge by DSB. I cannot guarantee that they will be taken into use says DSB's chief executive officer Søren Eriksen to Ritzau.

DSB originally ordered 83 train sets, but when Ansaldobreda fell behind the delivery schedule the railway company put an ultimatum to the train producer. Before the end of May, the Italians must have delivered 14 of the ordered trains, otherwise DSB will cancel the billion dollar contract."

The springing point is now, will the trains be able to pass technical specification tests between now and May? - Because DSB has made it abundantly clear that they are not going to accept yet another "...we're just facing minor teething problems. In a month or two it will work fine..." explanation. Either it all works in eight weeks' time, or else!! It still looks like a tall order to me.
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Old April 5th, 2009, 05:33 PM   #193
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I think that if DSB close the contract AnsaldoBreda could fail. And if it fails, DSB (and NS Hispeed) will remain without trains. Probably it would be better to wait another months.
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Old April 5th, 2009, 06:01 PM   #194
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Cocco, that's right up there with someone putting a gun to his own head and saying "if you don't pay me I'll pull the trigger!"

The Danes - if the press is anything to go by, as you know I don't live in DK anymore - are in a mood of grim determination: when the first (and second, and third...) delay occurred they reacted pretty much the way you suggest they should. But over the last six months they have changed tack. The talk of the town is now "if AnsaldoBreda have not been able to remedy their faults during the almost five years' extension we've granted them so far, then they bloody well won't be able to do so in just another few months!"

The public attitude is one of (1) cutting our losses and tossing Ansaldo overboard, (2) giving up our diesel follies and electrify the main net, and then (3) turning to a more reliable producer of electric trains.
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Old April 5th, 2009, 10:21 PM   #195
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Ansaldo was also supposed to deliver the new Dutch HSTs ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V250_(train) ), we have been waiting for them for quite a while, only one prototype exists at the moment and I'm not expecting them to deliver them within the next few years...
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Old April 5th, 2009, 10:41 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
I agree that the underinvestment in Danish railway infrastructure these last 30+ years is shameful. Many Danes who have never been abroad (on more than a week's vacation, that is...) seem to think that we have a well functioning railway system. They are wrong. We have pretty much the same railway system as we did one generation ago. In the meantime other countries have upgraded theirs.

That said, I think you over simplify the problem with the electrification. Had it been only about investing 8 billion kroner in overhead wiring then it would have been done long ago. The problem is, the main lines around Lillebaelt and in eastern Jutland are from the 19th century and, as was customary in those days, "follow the landscape". In other words, they meander like serpentines. Hence, electrifying them alone doesn't give much additional speed. (And, in a country producing electricity by burning coal, isn't particularly environmental either.)

The whole electrification issue has therefore been held up for 15-20 years by a non-decision about whether to straighten out some of the railway stretches by investment in sub-sections of, particularly, the Eastern Jutland Line. The Danish parliament agreed to such a scheme in the nineties - then binned it because they'd rather spend the money on rolling stock. (Those wretched IC4 trains...) I seem to remember that one element of the old plan was a railway bridge across Vejle Fjord so that the direct trains Odense-Aarhus wouldn't have to zigzag first west, then east. Eminently sensible, if you ask me. No doubt that's why the politicians decided not to do it.
It would make a lot of sense to build partly new main line stretches several places in Denmark. Mostly needed (besides the new Ringsted line) would be Århus south to Horsens via (or around) Skanderborg, which you can easily see just by a quick glance on a map. Then a whole new potential HSR line directly from Middelfart to Odense, and the Odense to Great Belt Bridge stretch can (as I can see) easily be rebuild to HSR as well. It is most definetely realistic with 300+ km/h service across Fyn in the future when doing this.
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Old April 5th, 2009, 11:04 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Thanks, Cocco. So, AnsaldoBreda is still trying? They have until mid-May to deliver the first batch of those so-called IC4 trains and get half a dozen of them approved by the technical regulators. Most railway industry insiders think they'll not manage this...

...but, then again, the Danish state has already paid out most of the money on that contract. If they want it back they'll have to go to court. Italian court! The guys in AnsaldoBreda probably figure they'll stand stronger if they press ahead with their side of the obligation until the last minute of the ultimatum.
Actually I read that the 5 billion out of the total order of 5,7 billion kroners are on a frozen bank account with high interest rates, which AnsaldoBreda cannot touch - So I guess DSB are not complete idiots after all.

We can now only hope that they cannot get these spaghetti bullshit trains through the inspection before the deadline in may, so we can get the 5 billion + interest rates back again!
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Old April 6th, 2009, 12:08 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Apostle View Post
Ansaldo was also supposed to deliver the new Dutch HSTs ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V250_(train) ), we have been waiting for them for quite a while, only one prototype exists at the moment and I'm not expecting them to deliver them within the next few years...
Also the HSL Zuid is late, so at the moment is not really a big problem like in Danemark.
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Old April 7th, 2009, 03:41 PM   #199
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To do Copenhagen - Arhus in two hours the average speed must be more then 160 km/h. And a high speed line between these two cities might be just a bit to expensive to build in a small country like Denmark.
Whoops, I quite forgot: you're shooting yourself in the foot, Momo! Because Copenhagen-Aarhus in two hours is not just a wild objective I drew out of a top hat - it has been mentioned by the Danish Minister for Transport as the government's long-term strategy. She referred to it as their "1-1-1 plan": One hour between Copenhagen and Odense; one hour between Odense and Aarhus; one hour between Aarhus and Aalborg. (One of her civil servants later told me they had suggested to call it the 1-2-3 plan, which sounds more punchy but was scrapped as being "too Copenhagen-centred".) I admit, of course, that in my posting I said "less than two hours" where as the minister only says "two hours".

The first leg of that strategy will be fulfilled when they construct the new HSL Copenhagen-Ringsted (notionally because of the Fehmer connection, but...), which will lower the best-time of the Intercity-Lyn trains between Copenhagen and Odense to 56 minutes. As for the rest, well... a plan for speeding Fredericia-Aarhus by, among other things, bypassing Vejle and Horsens was already once drawn up - and stuffed down the protesting throats of the respective mayors - in the 1990s. It was later binned because one particularly smart minister got the particularly smart idea of buying fast diesel trains from AnsaldoBreda instead. Still, the plan could be revived - and the signals coming out of the Ministry these days seem to indicate that it will be.
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Old April 15th, 2009, 01:17 PM   #200
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I'm having some doubts about the Danish railways infrastructure and i would like to know if there is someone that can help me.

I'm collecting information’s about some countries railways, and i’ve noticed that there is not clear information about the Danish railways, especially the private own railways....

According to the Statistics Denmark website there is a total of 2667 km of railway tracks in Denmark (2132km own by BANESTYRELSEN, 21km own by COPENHAGEN METRO and 514 km own by OTHER RAILWAY NETWORKS).

The problem is the few information about the length of the railway tracks own by private companies...
The only sources that i've found was Wikipedia and railfaneurope but when i compare the final results of this two sources i get a different railway length (488 km in Wikipedia and 534 km in railfaneurope)

HHJ - Hads-Ning Herreders Jernbane - 26,5 km (wiki) - 27 km (railfan)
HL - Hovedstadens Lokalbaner (1*) - 114,9 km (wiki) - 138 km (railfan)
Regionstog A/S (2*) - 196,6 km (wiki) - 200 km (railfan)
NJ - Nordjyske Jernbaner - 56,2 km (wiki) - 58 km (railfan)
VLTJ - Lemvigbanen - 56,3 km (wiki) - 60 km (railfan)
VNJ - Varde-Norre Nebel Jernbane - 37,6 km (wiki) - 51 km (railfan)
(RED - source wikipédia; GREEN - source railfaneurope)

(1*) HL - Hovedstadens Lokalbaner compose by HFHJ (36,3km) + GDS (25 km) + Lille_Nord (20,8 km) + HHGB (25 km) + LNJ (7,8 km)

(2*) Regionstog A/S compose by Lollandsbanen (50,2km) + Østbanen (46,2 km) + Høng-Tølløse Jernbane (38,8 km) + Odsherreds Jernbane (49,4 km)

So i get a little bit confuse with this final results and i do not know which is the correct information

Last edited by Trajno; April 15th, 2009 at 06:03 PM.
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