daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


View Poll Results: Default
. 0 0%
. 0 0%
Voters: 0. You may not vote on this poll

Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old April 18th, 2011, 10:42 PM   #241
makita09
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,536
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
I have no idea. All I know is that trains which come from Alstom's Italian plants (which was Fiat) have their difficulties as well, just look at the ETR610 Pendolino's that have suffered major delays as well. Not as bad as the average delay at AnsaldoBreda, but still pretty bad.

Why they suck at it? I don't know. It's a fact of life, I guess. Just like other countries suck at other things.
If you ask me its purely organisation. The Italians have no lack of capability to do anything, but they seem to have a knack for poor management, and if my Italian relatives are right its due to all sorts of silly external issues that British, French and German companies don't have to deal with - issues like the Italian government and administrations.
__________________
"There is no problem so bad that you can't make it worse" - Chris Hadfield
makita09 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old April 18th, 2011, 10:55 PM   #242
Alseimik
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 250
Likes (Received): 16

Quote:
Originally Posted by bongo-anders View Post
But to be fair the one half of the Company Ansaldo did a good job with Copenhagens driverless metro, even though they had some starting problems with the sensors on the tracks that stopped the trains when not supposed to.
Yeah, but that is a WHOLE other company, the only thing shared between them is the name as far as I know! Ansaldo has done a lot of good metro works as far as I know.

Quote:
If you ask me its purely organisation. The Italians have no lack of capability to do anything, but they seem to have a knack for poor management, and if my Italian relatives are right its due to all sorts of silly external issues that British, French and German companies don't have to deal with - issues like the Italian government and administrations.
Indeed, i don't believe they lack capability at all, but i don't believe that AnsaldoBreda has more issues enough to make that kind of excuse, as far as I understand, its pretty much every train order they have had, that has been like this.
Alseimik no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2011, 12:03 AM   #243
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

As far I know Copenaghen metro vehicles were built by AnsaldoBreda, and the control system by AndaldoSTS, both part of the Finmeccanica company (which also owns Ansaldo Energia, AgustaWestland and others; Finmeccanica itself is for one third owned by the Italian government).
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2011, 12:33 AM   #244
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

It's funny that you mention Ansaldo STS, they appearantly do a great job. They're the supplier for a lot of ERTMS related equipment, even for the TGV and ICE trains. Appearantly, Ansaldo STS can do a great job while AnsaldoBreda just performs poorly.
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2011, 03:46 PM   #245
Gadiri
Registered User
 
Gadiri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Paris-Agadir-Guelmim
Posts: 52,723
Likes (Received): 6981

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alseimik View Post
I don't know, but it kinda seems like they don't it seriously, at all. Great designers, but even before i heard of AnsaldoBreda, I've always been told never to let Italians build anything, let the Germans do it instead
Yes you're right, instead of bought Ansaldo Breda IC4, they should bought the fantastic ICE TD.

Quote:
Starting end of 2007, the class 605 is used in regular service on the Berlin-Hamburg-Copenhagen route, as a replacement for the Danish IC3 trains in Hamburg-Copenhagen service (these should long ago been replaced by the IC4 trains, but due to technical problems those have not been commissioned yet by DSB. The ten class 605 used in these services were equipped with the Danish ATC safety system. From 2008, the Denmark-compatible 605 are also used for Berlin-Hamburg-Århus services (previously, IC3 was used on the Flensburg-Århus route, and regional trains on the Hamburg-Flensburg relation). From mid-2009, three more ICE-TD units are to be used in Germany-Denmark service, allowing DSB to free up more IC3 trains for domestic service.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICE_TD

In Danemark :



Copenhagen station

__________________


FBI Says 94% of Terrorist Attacks in the US Since 1980 Are by Non-Muslims



Last edited by Gadiri; April 19th, 2011 at 03:52 PM.
Gadiri no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2011, 05:25 PM   #246
Alseimik
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 250
Likes (Received): 16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadiri View Post
Yes you're right, instead of bought Ansaldo Breda IC4, they should bought the fantastic ICE TD.
Maybe, but we don't have the rail for it, the maximum speed on the main line (between Aarhus and Copenhagen) is 180 km/h, some places 160 km/h, which would be a waste with the ICE TD, and no one (with the power) in Denmark, is doing anything about HSR plans, there's some talking, then some hobby organisation who made some plans, a little talk, then, let's build high ways to the middle of no where, where the roads are barely used already... Blah, they don't even fix the high way problems in Copenhagen properly.

But the line where ICE TD is already in service, is going to have a 200 km/h line from Copenhagen to the traffic bottleneck of Ringsted (the rail is made for 250 km/h, signal system would need to be upgraded for that) and from Ringsted and south to the new femern tunnel between Denmark and Germany, it seems likely that they are upgrading the existing rail to 200 km/h, as half of the line needs upgrade to double track, and they will electrify the whole thing.
Alseimik no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 1st, 2011, 01:06 AM   #247
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

Back in May 2009, DSB came to an agreement with AnsaldoBreda after they failed to meet an ultimatum. AnsaldoBreda would repay 45% of the price of the trainsets, and would deliver all of them, and DSB would do the 'final touches' themselves.

The last couple of days, some news articles have appeared in Danish newspapers and magazines about DSB's order of IC4 with AnsaldoBreda. Appearantly, there are a lot of issues with the trains and quality is sub-par. It is even as sub-par that DSB can't guarantee a reliable timetable based on IC4 trains.

Of the 83 trainsets that have been ordered, so far 43 have been delivered to Denmark. 18 of these have the proper admissions to be used for passenger service. However, DSB dares to only use 4 to 9 of these sets for passenger service. A new ultimatum might be presented to AnsaldoBreda.

The point of no return has passed for DSB, because half of the trains has already been built and is in Denmark already. Furthermore, a new public tendering procedure, along with the time needed to build new trains, getting them admitted etc. is a process which takes years. So DSB will have to keep up with AnsaldoBreda, for better or worse.

DSB will inspect each of the trainsets in Italy and if they're not up to DSB's quality standards, the train will not be shipped to Denmark and will not be paid for until everything is in order.

Sources (machine translated, original in Danish):
- DSB requires significant improvements in the IC4 trains
- DSB will not drop AnsaldoBreda
- DSB's trains be intractable
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 4th, 2011, 12:47 PM   #248
hans280
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Paris
Posts: 757
Likes (Received): 173

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alseimik View Post
But the line where ICE TD is already in service, is going to have a 200 km/h line from Copenhagen to the traffic bottleneck of Ringsted (the rail is made for 250 km/h, signal system would need to be upgraded for that)
I think the Danish authorities are playing a tactical game there. We've seen it in France as well, on the LGV Est Europpeen, which is laid out for 350 km/h but currently allowed for 320 km/h. The reason is... that SNCF does not HAVE trains that can drive faster than 320 km/h whereas their German competitors do. I suspect a similar game. With the tracks across Europe opening up to third party access the Danes are in no hurry to open Copenhagen-Ringsted to speeds that Swedish and German trains can manage, but Danish trains currently cannot.
hans280 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 4th, 2011, 03:33 PM   #249
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
The reason is... that SNCF does not HAVE trains that can drive faster than 320 km/h whereas their German competitors do.
Nope, the Germans don't have trains capable for that either. The SNCF TGV's have a maximum speed of 320 km/h. The German ICE-3 trains don't go faster... they have an allowed maximum speed of 320 km/h. The new Velaro D trains will run at top 320 km/h as well. The trains you're thinking of are the Velaro E and CN which run at 350 km/h in Spain and China. Those haven't been ordered by Deutsche Bahn.

If SNCF wants to go 350 km/h they have to order either Velaro (unlikely, as its German) or AGV (which is more likely as its French).
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 4th, 2011, 05:21 PM   #250
Gadiri
Registered User
 
Gadiri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Paris-Agadir-Guelmim
Posts: 52,723
Likes (Received): 6981

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
Nope, the Germans don't have trains capable for that either. The SNCF TGV's have a maximum speed of 320 km/h. The German ICE-3 trains don't go faster... they have an allowed maximum speed of 320 km/h. The new Velaro D trains will run at top 320 km/h as well. The trains you're thinking of are the Velaro E and CN which run at 350 km/h in Spain and China. Those haven't been ordered by Deutsche Bahn.

If SNCF wants to go 350 km/h they have to order either Velaro (unlikely, as its German) or AGV (which is more likely as its French).
CAF Oaris also goes to 350 km/h..
__________________


FBI Says 94% of Terrorist Attacks in the US Since 1980 Are by Non-Muslims


Gadiri no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 5th, 2011, 08:48 PM   #251
hans280
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Paris
Posts: 757
Likes (Received): 173

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
Nope, the Germans don't have trains capable for that either. The SNCF TGV's have a maximum speed of 320 km/h. The German ICE-3 trains don't go faster... they have an allowed maximum speed of 320 km/h. The new Velaro D trains will run at top 320 km/h as well. The trains you're thinking of are the Velaro E and CN which run at 350 km/h in Spain and China. Those haven't been ordered by Deutsche Bahn.
You're not quoting me correctly. I know that Velaro, in the ICE3 configuration, is not allowed for 350 km/h. It is, however, approved for 330 km/h - on the line between Wolfsburg and Rathenow.
hans280 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2011, 07:24 PM   #252
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

More news on the plagued IC4 trains. According to DSB's internal operating data, during the Easter week there were daily breakdown of the few IC4 trains that DSB planned to operate in service. The reliability of the IC4 is estimated to be one third of that of an IC3 train (source).

Furthermore, DSB has decided to temporarily stop accepting new IC4 trains into the country, and these will not be paid. The reason for this is the rapidly detoriating quality of the trains. In addition to the loss of income for AnsaldoBreda, they will have to pay DSB a penalty of DKR 1 million (€ 135.000,-) for each month that the IC4 trains are not of the desired quality (source). According to the article, an IC4 train needs service every other 2000 km. The average for a DSB train is 20,000 km.

Someone, please put this miserable excuse for a rolling stock manufacturer out of its misery.
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2011, 09:11 PM   #253
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21257

Anslado-Breda is not a bad manufacturer, they are just having problems following the merge between the American and the Italian operations. They will get over and, hopefully, deliver all the Danish rolling stock.

The problem is that I read somewhere Ansaldo-Breda is having problems securing new contracts, which could put them on financial difficulties.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2011, 09:28 PM   #254
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist
Anslado-Breda is not a bad manufacturer, they are just having problems following the merge between the American and the Italian operations. They will get over and, hopefully, deliver all the Danish rolling stock.

The problem is that I read somewhere Ansaldo-Breda is having problems securing new contracts, which could put them on financial difficulties.
I would love to agree with you, but unfortunately I can't. AnsaldoBreda has been having problems for at least a decade, the only thing which they seem to do well is driverless metro systems. There are a lot of complaints about them, coming from the Danish, the Dutch, and several cities in the USA. Just look at Los Angeles, AnsaldoBreda even promised them to move their headquarters there, just in the hope to secure a new contract!

AnsaldoBreda may have difficulties securing new contracts, but in my opinion they get what they deserve. You have to deliver to remain in business, otherwise the competition will take the lead. AB apparently can't deliver, just look at how long the IC4 debacle has been going on, and the V250.
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2011, 11:09 PM   #255
Spikespiegel
Used Registrant
 
Spikespiegel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 411
Likes (Received): 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Anslado-Breda is not a bad manufacturer, they are just having problems following the merge between the American and the Italian operations. They will get over and, hopefully, deliver all the Danish rolling stock.

The problem is that I read somewhere Ansaldo-Breda is having problems securing new contracts, which could put them on financial difficulties.
No, you're wrong... Ansaldo-Breda IS a bad manufacturer.

The finest example of that is the electrical wiring.
Order a train from the Germans, and you get a complete charts of where every single electrical wire is. Open up to the wires, and they are all placed for easy access, in a neatly fashion.

Ansaldo-Breda on the other hand throws in the wiring whereever it will fit. Not two trains have the same wiring... What is worse is that they do not use the official international colours for the different wirings. They are not even consistant. Where they use one colour wire one place, they may use another colour another to serve the same purpose. I've been told that sometimes the same wire may have as many as five different colours before it reaches its destination.
Spikespiegel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2011, 11:40 PM   #256
Alseimik
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 250
Likes (Received): 16

as all above, i agree, AnsaldoBreda IS bad! i know we too often say a company is bad, just as a way of speaking. But after a decay, an ultimatum, and a agreement of that DSB should put it together the finishing parts, and the shit STILL don't work, comfort is HORRIBLE, too noisy, bad seats (but the window and the "leg-space" is good, as the only thing). There's simply TOO many things that prove, that AnsaldoBreda has done a horrible work with the IC4 order. That's even without mentioning all the other ****ed up projects they got, like the Dutch. x7

There's is simply nothing good to say about them, i would say designs where okay, but then again, Dutch. The metro, however, is designed and made from an entire different part of the company, as I heard, only thing the departments share, is the head director.
Alseimik no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2011, 12:44 PM   #257
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

DSB has asked their legal staff to investigate how they can get out of the IC4 contract.
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 24th, 2011, 12:47 PM   #258
enarque illumine
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: from paris with love..
Posts: 4
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
DSB has asked their legal staff to investigate how they can get out of the IC4 contract.
pffff... ansaldebreda c'est nul!
enarque illumine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 28th, 2011, 09:11 AM   #259
hans280
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Paris
Posts: 757
Likes (Received): 173

Quote:
Originally Posted by enarque illumine View Post
pffff... ansaldebreda c'est nul!
The sad tale of AnsaldoBreda (consecutive mishaps in Denmark, the Netherlands and California) IMHO illustrate the risk of doing business with a company that has a tarnished reputation. If a company like Bombardier, Siemens or Alstom got halfway into a debacle like IC4 or Fyra they would no doubt throw massive corporate resources at the problem and solve it - even at a heavy loss. This they would do because a continuation of the delivery trouble would cost them dearly in terms of demotion of their reputation and brand value. However...

...when a company is already considered as "cheap but unreliable" then what reputation is there to lose? I learned that lesson first hand by discussing the IC4 debacle with an Italian colleague in Paris. He was positively delighted at the news that AnsaldoBreda was screwing the Danish taxpayers over, because "you see, Hans, I'm a shareholder in Finmeccanica". Well... in his eyes, apparently, trying to establish a reputation for reliability is a sign of stupidity?

That said, I think the Danish authorities ARE being stupid. As many of you know, AnsaldoBreda was awarded the contracts for the second metro line in Copenhagen. The authorities were so incredibly risk-averse that they insisted that the private sector contractor underwrites all risks. This made reputable companies walk out, on the principle that "we're not insurers". And... the Danes were once more saddled with AnsaldoBreda who was willing to sign the Danish conditions because, one may suspect, they had no intention of honoring the contractual conditions anyway.

Last edited by hans280; May 29th, 2011 at 08:01 AM.
hans280 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 28th, 2011, 11:21 AM   #260
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21257

That is a normal process, up to a point: very high-risk contract will usually skim out the most established players on a market, the ones who have not much more to gain if the project is successful but that has much to lose otherwise. Being a company with a string of previous problems, the gamble might pay off if that metro goes ok, but if it went down completely, with 10-year delay or so, future prospects won't be affected much more.

You have also to consider that Siemens, Alstom and CAF are full of orders as the market is high. It is usually easier to score more lucrative contracts with higher margins in Asia and Latin America than in Europe, ans standards are also lower over there.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
denmark, trains

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium