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Old August 6th, 2007, 11:18 PM   #21
FREKI
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Here's the realtime train map of Denmark if anyone cares to see the WORST rail system in the univers!

http://lp.bane.dk/mapcafe/pass_tog.asp

( coloures indicate delays in minuttes )


And here's the S-Train network in Copenhagen
http://byenspuls.dsb.dk/byens_puls/ByensPuls.html
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Old August 6th, 2007, 11:44 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
^That has to be the ugliest train i've ever seen.
The model is called IC3 and they haven since been repainted...

I don't think it's ugly, but I could use a better fron ( like the new next gen IC4 )

On the plus side it looks like this on the inside:


And the new IC4 looks like this:
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Old August 7th, 2007, 01:56 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by city_thing View Post
I lived in CPH for quite a while, and the trains were always quite good.

The UK probably has the worst system in Western Europe, even if they don't consider themselves European.
how do you know have you been on the uk train network.If you aint then shut up and that goes for anyone else who hasn't been.If you have and have had a bad experience thats different.I am a frequent train travaller here and the network works very well.Oh we are a part of europe yes but we consider ourselves british.As for other train networks in europe i have never been to other european countries so i can't comment(only been to the usa and canada).I'm sure there are good and there are bad.But i'll leave that up to residents of there own countries to criticise or applore there networks.Plus how can i vote on a train network that i've never experienced.Or other people for that matter

I am british and defend it til i die

Last edited by marrio415; August 7th, 2007 at 02:05 AM.
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Old August 7th, 2007, 02:27 AM   #24
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the worst railway system ineurope, imo is the italian. It's cheap and frequent, but almost every time I had to take a train there it was late, and some of the trains are really old as well.
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Old August 7th, 2007, 04:21 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallaroo View Post
A typical danish train on a typical danish railway. Poor old tracks and outdated signalling. Sharp curves and low speeds.
it looks like a bumper train
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Old August 7th, 2007, 12:48 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marrio415 View Post
how do you know have you been on the uk train network.If you aint then shut up and that goes for anyone else who hasn't been.If you have and have had a bad experience thats different.I am a frequent train travaller here and the network works very well.Oh we are a part of europe yes but we consider ourselves british.As for other train networks in europe i have never been to other european countries so i can't comment(only been to the usa and canada).I'm sure there are good and there are bad.But i'll leave that up to residents of there own countries to criticise or applore there networks.Plus how can i vote on a train network that i've never experienced.Or other people for that matter

I am british and defend it til i die
Actually I lived in the UK for 4 years and hold a British passport. So before you start mouthing off with some self flagulation posing as extreme nationalist sentiment, I suggest you turn around and sit facing the corner.

The British rail system is ok, but pales in comparison to DK and most of Europe.

PS. Learn how to use grammar.
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Old August 7th, 2007, 01:27 PM   #27
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Only somebody who has never been to Ireland could say that the UK has the worst rail in Western Europe. We don't have the best either but how about countries like Portugal.

The % of delays in the UK sounds similar to Denmark (just under 10%) and we have a small HSR section between London and the Channel Tunnel. There are still many countries that don't have any HSR.

Our non-HSR mainlines are pretty quick with good regular services. The East and West coast mainlines have a top speed of 200kph which is faster than many countries trunk services, London-Newcastle for example takes 3 hours or less, that's an average speed of 155kph, services every 30 minutes. London-Manchester takes just over 2 hours with a service every 30 minutes, average speed 145kph.

As a comparison, the French TGV network has average speed of around 170-220kph but usually the services are less frequent, once every 60-90 minutes is common. In Germany Koln-Stuttgart averages 160kph, services every 60 minutes. Copenhagen Odense averages 110kph.

The network is comprehensive going to most parts of the country and most main routes are electrified. There are plenty of commuter services around most big cities.



The rail system has seen passenger numbers increase by 50% over the past ten years which has caused some overcrowding on busy routes which is now the main problem. But most rolling stock is now pretty modern and in good condition and there has been £ billions of investment in improving track and signalling in recent years. There is room for improvement for sure but the worst in W. Europe? Not by a long way imo.

Last edited by Jonesy55; August 7th, 2007 at 02:00 PM.
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Old August 7th, 2007, 02:49 PM   #28
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And I really can't see how people can blame it on privatisation, since services and passenger numbers have been going up since the privatisation. Furthermore, countries with privatised railway systems like Japan and the Netherlands have some of the best services out there.
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Old August 7th, 2007, 03:03 PM   #29
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Privatisation of the track and infrastructure didn't work but that was rectified several years ago. I don't see anything wrong personally with franchising the train operations, as you say, many countries do that successfully.

The main problem that the UK network faced was lack of investment between about 1970 and 2000, the track and rolling stock was allowed to age more than it should have been and towards the end of that period you could see the results. However there has been significant investment since and as somebody who travelled about 32,000 kms last year on the UK rail network I can say that it's definitely better than a few years ago and provides a much better service than it is often credited for.

The main priority now should be to increase capacity so that overcrowding on the busy routes is eased but the network as a whole is heading in the right direction.
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Old August 7th, 2007, 04:14 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweek View Post
And I really can't see how people can blame it on privatisation, since services and passenger numbers have been going up since the privatisation. Furthermore, countries with privatised railway systems like Japan and the Netherlands have some of the best services out there.
Rail privatisation hasnt worked in many cases.
The privately run rail companies in the US have dissapeared for a large part,
the privatisations in New Zealand and Argentinia have lead to a substantial cutback of rail travel, the partial privatisation in Sweden has led to higher state investments and the biggest private rail company basically went bust which meant that the state had to help out.
Also, the only profitable train companies in Japan are those who serve the main connections between the big cities.
The regional companies still get very high state investments.

Considering Britain:

Yes, more travellers use the train these days, yet the overall costs for the taxpayer rose significantly.
In connection to the privatisation many bad accidents happened and the privatised rail company "Railtrack" went bust in 2001 and had to be nationalized again.
The necessary modernisation of the run down network will cost british taxpayers up to 50 billion pounds.
All british political parties look upon the british rail privatisation as a concept that has failed.

from Wiki:

Quote:
The Government insists that Network Rail is a private company when all of Britain's press and others say that it is a state owned company. In fact, the Government are the only people in the country that insist that Network Rail is a private company. The reason that the Government lie about its status is to keep Railtrack's shareholders from getting about £10 per share (the 4 year average price of Railtrack) in compensation via the European Court of Human rights. Instead the shareholders have been given £2.62p in compensation. Many people have lost their life savings as a result. Their actions constitute the biggest state seizure of private property in the Western world since the Nazis seized the assets of the Jews, prior to WW2.

Last edited by GNU; August 7th, 2007 at 04:23 PM.
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Old August 7th, 2007, 04:20 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GNU View Post
Considering Britain:

Yes, more travellers use the train these days, yet the overall costs for the taxpayer rose significantly..
The costs have risen because investment has risen, this would have also been the case with a totally nationalised system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GNU View Post
In connection to the privatisation many bad accidents happened and the privatised rail company "Railtrack" went bust in 2001 and had to be nationalized again..
It's true that Railtrack was not a success but the accidents you talk about were due to 30 years of underinvestment not 3 years, several also happened before privatisation. Fortunately we have not had a major accident like these for a few years now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GNU View Post
The necessary modernisation of the run down network will cost british taxpayers up to 50 billion pounds.
All british political parties look upon the british rail privatisation as a concept that has failed.
Yes, but as I said, investment was low for 30 years, this cannot be corrected cheaply.

No political party is talking about renationalising the Train Operating Companies
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Old August 7th, 2007, 04:30 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
The costs have risen because investment has risen, this would have also been the case with a totally nationalised system.
Yes, investment into a system that has been run down.
It gets an overhaul now.
Why would that have been the case with a nationalised system?
Railtrack never made the necessary investments when it was a private company.
Its getting better now only because the government stepped in.


Quote:
It's true that Railtrack was not a success but the accidents you talk about were due to 30 years of underinvestment not 3 years, several also happened before privatisation. Fortunately we have not had a major accident like these for a few years now.
I aggree that there have been no large accidents however just recently an Intercity went off the track, something that happened last year aswell.
There are constant smaller accidents that just dont happen in this frequency in France or Germany.



Quote:
Yes, but as I said, investment was low for 30 years, this cannot be corrected cheaply.
Absolutely but now the taxpayer has to pay for it.

Quote:
No political party is talking about renationalising the Train Operating Companies
Railtrack has been renationalised under Labour and its still basically a state run company.
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Old August 7th, 2007, 04:31 PM   #33
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I am not claiming that privatisation has always worked, nor do I think that there shouldn't be any government funding. My point is that there are many factors, and that people seem to blame privatisation for a lot of problems of the UK rail system that were already there and that privatisation has got nothing to do with.
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Old August 7th, 2007, 04:38 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GNU View Post
Yes, investment into a system that has been run down.
It gets an overhaul now.
Why would that have been the case with a nationalised system?
Railtrack never made the necessary investments when it was a private company.
Its getting better now only because the government stepped in.
But that's what i'm saying, the underinvestment ALSO happened pre-1997 when it was a nationalised system because the government wanted to save money and had a short term outlook. If privatisation had never happened the taxpayer would still be footing the bill for the current investment so there is no difference.
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Old August 7th, 2007, 04:43 PM   #35
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Germany also has its fair share of bad accidents, even France has had a few in recent years:

17 October 2006: Two people are reported killed and around 60 injured when two metro trains collide at Piazza Vittorio Emanuele II station in Rome.

11 October 2006: Five people die when a goods train and a passenger train collide in France just south of the border with Luxembourg.

September 2006: A magnetic monorail train collides with a maintenance wagon, killing 23 people, during a test-run near the town of Lathen in Germany.

August 2006: Six people are killed and at least 36 injured in a passenger train derailment in northern Spain.

June 2006: At least 30 people are killed and a dozen hurt in a metro train crash in the eastern Spanish city of Valencia.

January 2006: At least 39 people die and 135 are injured - many of them skiers - when a train plunges down a ravine after its brakes fail in Podgorica, Montenegro.

January 2005: A crowded Italian train collides head-on with a freight convoy in thick fog near Bologna, Italy, killing at least 14 people and injuring more than 50.

November 2004: Seven are killed and 37 injured as a London to Plymouth train derails after hitting a car on a level-crossing in Berkshire, UK.

August 2004: At least six die and 85 are hurt in a head-on crash in north-western Turkey.

July 2004: A high-speed train from Istanbul to Ankara derails in the north-western province of Sakarya killing at least 36 people in one Turkey's worst ever rail disasters.

June 2003: At least 19 people die when a passenger train and a freight train collide in Spain's Albacete province.

May 2003: A train crashes into a German coach at a level crossing on the shores of Lake Balaton in Hungary, killing 33 people on the coach.

November 2002: Twelve people die in a fire on an overnight sleeper train near the eastern French city of Nancy.

May 2002: A crash at Potter's Bar in Britain kills seven people and injures dozens more when a train derails and smashes into a station.

September 2001: A head-on collision in southern Germany injures 82 people, nine of them seriously.

June 2001: Seven people are killed in two separate train crashes in Germany. Both were apparently caused by vehicles crossing railway lines despite warning signals.

March 2001: Eight people are killed when two trains smash into each other head-on in the village of Pecrot, about 26 kilometres (16 miles) east of Brussels.

February 2001: Ten people are killed in North Yorkshire, UK, when a high-speed passenger train hits a car on the track before colliding with a freight train.

October 2000: Four people are killed in the UK when a high-speed London to Leeds train derails at Hatfield, Hertfordshire.

February 2000: Eight people are killed when an overnight passenger train is derailed near Cologne, Germany.

January 2000: Two passenger trains collide in Norway, 150 km (100 miles) north of Oslo, overturning several coaches and setting off a huge blaze. A total of 19 people die.

October 1999: Thirty-one people are killed when a high-speed passenger train approaching London's Paddington Station collides with a local commuter train.

June 1998: More than 100 people are killed when a German high-speed train travelling from Munich to Hamburg goes off the rails at Eschede.

September 1997: Seven people are killed when a Swansea-to-London express train collides with a goods locomotive.
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Old August 7th, 2007, 05:10 PM   #36
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I made a small comparison


British rail accidents: (2000-2007)


Quote:
* Swainsthorpe, 1 March 2007; 1 Killed in car on Level Crossing non injured:
* Grayrigg, 23 February 2007; 1 killed, 22 injured: points fault
* Copmanthorpe, 25 September 2006; 1 killed in car which crashed through
fence onto track, train hit it
* Romney, Hythe & Dymchurch Railway, 10 July 2005; 1 killed: train hit car at level crossing
* Ufton Nervet, 6 November 2004; 7 killed, 150 injured: train hit car at level crossing
* Tebay, 15 February 2004; 4 track workers killed; 3 injured: runaway work trolley hit railway workmen
* Norton Bridge, 16 October 2003; 1 injured: train passed signal at red: rear-end collision
* Romney, Hythe & Dymchurch Railway, 3 August 2003; 1 killed: train hit car at level crossing
* Pershore, Worcestershire, 7 July 2003; 3 killed
* Southall East, 24 November 2002; 31 injured: broken fishplate caused HST coach to derail throwing ballast through windows.
* Potters Bar, 10 May 2002; 7 killed, 70 injured: faulty points failed under train, derailed carriage which flew onto platforms
* Nocton, Lincolnshire, 28 February 2002; 1 killed in van, 14 injured on train, after van was driven through wall and fell onto track
* Hither Green, 12 March 2001; train from Sevenoaks passed red signal and hit train from Crayford. (Distinguish from 1967 crash.)
* Selby (Great Heck), 28 February 2001; 10 killed, 80+ injured: Land Rover ran down embankment onto track, train hit it
* Welwyn Garden City, 28 November 2000; 1 injured as an empty Class 313 EMU derails and falls 90 degrees narrowly missing the 24ft drop into the bus station - injuring driver.
* Hatfield, 17 October 2000; 4 killed, 35 injured: broken rail caused derailment, restaurant coach hit overhead catenary stanchion
16 accidents in total - 41 people died


German rail accidents (2000-2007)


Quote:
*February 6, 2000 – Brühl, Germany: An express night train from Amsterdam, Holland to Basel, Switzerland passes a construction area at excess speed and derails at Brühl station on the main line between Köln and Bonn, crashing into a nearby house. 9 die.
*September 9, 2002 – Bad Münder, Germany: Two freight trains collide head-on after a brake failure on one of the trains. A tank car loaded with 1-Chlor-2,3-epoxypropan explodes, contaminating the station and exposing 96 firemen to carcinogenic fumes.
*June 11, 2003 – 6 die and 25 are injured when two passenger trains collide head-on near Schrozberg, Germany.
*September 22, 2006 – Lathen, Emsland, Germany: 21 passengers and two maintenance workers die and many more are injured when a German Transrapid train collides with a maintenance of way vehicle on the system's test track near the Netherlands border.
That last one wasnt a public accident btw but it hapened on a test track.

4 accidents in total / 3 happened in service - 36 people died in total even though only 15 happened in service
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Old August 7th, 2007, 05:16 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
Don't know what to say about Danish railways though. The system could and should be better for such a rich country, I think.
Thats my whole point - it both could and should be among the best in the world when you consider the countrys potential.
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Old August 7th, 2007, 05:27 PM   #38
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Why not go back as far as 1998? 10 years would seem like a nice round number

You missed out this one by the way.

"Friday, 22 June, 2001, 14:54 GMT 15:54 UK
Three dead in German train crash

At least three people have been killed and 20 injured after a US army truck collided with a local train in southern Germany.

The accident, at a rail crossing near the Bavarian town of Vilseck, happened on Friday morning when the lorry drove into the path of a train at a level crossing. "

anyway, it is not a contest, I was just pointing out that people are killed even on the best networks.
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Old August 7th, 2007, 05:36 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
But that's what i'm saying, the underinvestment ALSO happened pre-1997 when it was a nationalised system because the government wanted to save money and had a short term outlook. If privatisation had never happened the taxpayer would still be footing the bill for the current investment so there is no difference.
Yes, but if theyd kept a privateised system then we would still see no investments
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Old August 7th, 2007, 05:45 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris1491 View Post
In the Netherlands, speeds are also rarely over 120 - 140km/h, so it's not that bad. Distances are short in Denmark, so 120 or 180 doesn't make THAT much difference.

But thats very few electrified! I thought the main N-S line on Jutland should be electrified, but it turns out that it isn't. I also thought the line Rodby - Kobenhavn was electrified. At least all intercity lines should be electrified..

But, is the Danish railroad important for Denmark? I mean, why put large amounts of money in it, while nobody uses it?
Danish railroads are very important - especially for pendlers and since cars cost 2 - 3 times more here than in other countries. The fact that rather few people uses the trains in Denmark are because of the low speeds, high fares, and all the delays. I think that Denmark also is suitable for high speed trains because of the main intercity line from Frederikshavn to Copenhagen, which runs through most of the large cities in the country: Ålborg, Randers, Århus, Horsens, Vejle, Fredericia, Odense, and Roskilde. There are stretches on that line where the intercity trains dont stop for over 50 km.
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