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Old April 9th, 2013, 11:04 PM   #421
NordikNerd
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Great photos, but that modern diesel MZ loco does not match the train. I would rather like to see a blue coloured My instead. In Sweden all the trainspotters are already waiting in line to get photos of this legendary train. The prominent passengers are now staying at a hotel in Copenhagen. Tomorrow the journey will continue over the bridge to Sweden.

Are those wagons compatible with the safety regulations of the Store Bält tunnel?
How did they pick out the engine drivers for the train ? In sweden there was a great deal of argueing about who is going to drive the 2 Rc6 locos of the orient express.

I wonder if this scandinavian branch will be a continous destination for the Orient Express?

Maybe Oslo also will be included in the future?
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Old April 9th, 2013, 11:16 PM   #422
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I would have loved to se DSB Museumstog MY locomotive instead but they have shined up that MZ.


Regarding the choice off driver i actually i heard two people talking at Høje Taastrup station, one of them was a train driver for DB Schenker and he was the one that has to drive the train from Kastrup maintenance center to Malmö C tomorrow.

He told that he was getting a phone call about if he wanted to drive the Orient Express and he´s first answer was something like well okay.

After he had hung up the phone, he was like what the f..k and called the office again to confirm


But actually none of the locomotives that passes the Öresund bridge is allowed to travel with passengers so they are either going to Malmö by bus or by a special Øresund train.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 08:12 AM   #423
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But actually none of the locomotives that passes the Öresund bridge is allowed to travel with passengers so they are either going to Malmö by bus or by a special Øresund train.
Couldn't the Rc 6 pick up the waggons in Copenhagen ?

Also where did they park the waggons during the night at Copenhagen H?, it is already a very busy and congested station.

What about the London-Paris section of the orient-express. Do the passengers leave the train during the crossing, are those vintage waggons really allowed in the chunnel ?
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Old April 10th, 2013, 11:36 AM   #424
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Couldn't the Rc 6 pick up the waggons in Copenhagen ?
I suppose that the Rc6 are 15 kV only, so that they can't go into Denmark.

Sadly, Denmark has chose 25 kV instead of 15 kV, interrupting the 15 kV 16,7 Hz link from Chiasso to Narvik.

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What about the London-Paris section of the orient-express. Do the passengers leave the train during the crossing, are those vintage waggons really allowed in the chunnel ?
Passengers go from London to Dover (or a station nearby, I don't know which one exactly), then take a bus via the Eurotunnel and board a different train in Calais.

The two rains are technically different, the first one is built to the British loading gauge and is probably composed of day coaches (without beds), the second one is made of luxurious sleeping cars built to European loading gauge (they couldn't travel in Britain even if they wanted to, except from the Chunnel and HS1 to London, as they are too big).
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Old April 10th, 2013, 12:25 PM   #425
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Couldn't the Rc 6 pick up the waggons in Copenhagen ?
1. NO locomotive is authorised to haul passengers over the Øresundbridge, no matter the nationality of the locomotive.
2. The Rc 6 can only run on 15kV, 16 2/3hz voltage, while Denmark uses 25kV, 50hz
3. The Rc 6 isn't approved for operating in Denmark.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 01:11 PM   #426
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1. NO locomotive is authorised to haul passengers over the Øresundbridge, no matter the nationality of the locomotive.
2. The Rc 6 can only run on 15kV, 16 2/3hz voltage, while Denmark uses 25kV, 50hz
3. The Rc 6 isn't approved for operating in Denmark.
How do they transport the waggons over to Sweden then ?
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Old April 10th, 2013, 02:27 PM   #427
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How do they transport the waggons over to Sweden then ?
As far as I know, they were pulled by a Danish MZ, which is approved for operating in both Denmark and Sweden. The passengers would have been transported across on a trainset and reboarded the Orient Express in Malmö.

Last edited by Spikespiegel; April 10th, 2013 at 02:32 PM.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 06:56 PM   #428
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I suppose that the Rc6 are 15 kV only, so that they can't go into Denmark.

Sadly, Denmark has chose 25 kV instead of 15 kV, interrupting the 15 kV 16,7 Hz link from Chiasso to Narvik.
The Danish are acting in anticipation of a future of 25kV 50Hz everywhere. They have many diesel lines still (a pity) and it makes sense to start converting the whole networks to the highest standard of high-speed rail.

Even German-speaking Europe will adopt 25kV sometime in the future.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 07:50 PM   #429
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I wonder why you waste your time always proposing gigantic projects (which in an utopian world might be nice), but never explaining how to pay for them or if they are good value for money...

Actually, I wonder if you can understand that money doesn't grow on trees, or if that is beyond your possibilities...

I'm not saying that, in theory, having a single voltage everywhere would be a bad thing, or that flyovers are worse than flat junctions, but that wanting them everywhere is simply utopian and in many cases of little value for money. Saying such things in every thread of the rail forum is just trolling, as the answer is and will always be the same, simply because we live in a real world, not in an utopian one.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 07:52 PM   #430
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Going back to the concrete case: since Denmark is embarking on a large-scale electrification project itself, why should it not adopt the standard of the future, putting itself 40-60 years ahead of all neighbors?
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Old April 10th, 2013, 08:21 PM   #431
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That's a good reply, Sub.

The advantage of the system chosen by Denmark is that it can (and certainly is) be connected with the industrial network as both use the same frequency (50 Hz).

On the contrary the 16,7 Hz requires a separate electric network, with generators designed to produce current with that frequency (one third of the industrial one) (connections between networks of different frequency are possible but complicated and inefficient, look at Japan, split between 50 and 60 Hz).

However, the networks using the 15 kV 16,7 Hz system already have an extensive supply network in place (in Switzerland for example many hydroelectric power stations). As the 16,7 Hz system gives more or less the same advantages of the 50 Hz system, they don't have a real need to convert the frequency and increase voltage of their rail network. They would have to pay for the conversion but with little technical advantage.

What is an idea worth considering, instead, is the conversion of 1,5 kV DC network into 25 kV AC. That's less valid for the 3 kV DC system (a higher voltage is better than a lower one).

To summarize, electrifying Denmark at 16,7 Hz might have been a wise decision, converting 16,7 Hz networks to 50 Hz wouldn't, while converting low-voltage DC lines to 50 Hz might be worth the expense (especially as in southern France, full of DC lines, the masts and wires will need replacement soon in any case and where most of electric engines are already able to run both on DC and AC).
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Old April 10th, 2013, 08:28 PM   #432
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Cocco, unfortunately you're in the wrong here.

1. 25kV 50/60Hz has become the international standard, and so new electrification projects seeking to future-proof themselves have to adopt it. By contrast, the Germanic 15kV 16.7Hz standard is only in use in countries that adopted it long ago.

2. Because of (1), any German equipment seeking to travel on neighbors' rails needs to have equipment to use neighbors' wire. What this means is that German equipment traveling to French destination needs to be able to process French voltage standards. Which coincidentally happen to be the same as the Danish standard, mainly because the international standard is the French standard. So there really isn't any technical prohibition on German equipment wired to run on foreign rails not running on Danish rails anyway.

3. Standard conversion is, yes, long, expensive, and unglamorous. But it need not be a sudden changeover. Equipment needing to process two or three voltage standards is heavier than other kinds (a big part of the weight difference between e.g. the Nozomi and Velaro), and with the weight premium in pax rail being what it is, it makes sense to implement a phased approach to the international standard to bring railcar weight down and speeds up. For instance, it makes sense for DB to convert its electric blocks along the French border to the international standard first, and then blocks feeding into Köln and Stuttgart, and then blocks feeding into those blocks, and so forth, until the standard turnover is effected. This can even be done in the course of normal transformer replacement cycles. It is an expense, yes, but it is not an expense that must be borne all at once--not like the initial investment in mainline electrification or a new HSR ROW.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 08:30 PM   #433
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The problem of the Swiss and German systems is that the electricity costs of rail operations are higher because of that necessity of a separate network. After all, on the domain of electrical engineering, rectifying AC tension is much easier than rectifying frequency.

The advantage of converting production facilities to 50Hz is allowing the owner of the power stations to sell electricity to the general grid when trains are idling in the middle of the night. Or even when trains are not idiling but spot prices are very high and there is excessive production capacity. It is the whole idea of a "grid" first place.

Since Denmakr is embarking on large-scale projects of wind energy and what else, it makes sense to expand electrification that can be integrated on the grid already.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 08:48 PM   #434
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I know that in Europe 50 Hz is the standard (not 60), and that large scale electrification should use that frequency and not a non-standard one.

What I'm saying is that the 16,7 Hz networks already have all the equipment in place and that this system hasn't many drawbacks compared to the 50 Hz one, beside the initial cost. But in Switzerland/Germany/etc there is no initial cost, as the equipment is already in place.

That's why I think there is no need to convert from 16,7 Hz to 50 Hz, and why I think 16,7 Hz networks will never be converted.

Migration from low-voltage DC is another story (and still I think DC will remain in place for many years to come).

Sure, I cannot say what will happen in 100 years from now. But if all Europe will change to 50 Hz AC one day, it will be the DC current to disappear first.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 09:10 PM   #435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
I know that in Europe 50 Hz is the standard (not 60), and that large scale electrification should use that frequency and not a non-standard one.

What I'm saying is that the 16,7 Hz networks already have all the equipment in place and that this system hasn't many drawbacks compared to the 50 Hz one, beside the initial cost. But in Switzerland/Germany/etc there is no initial cost, as the equipment is already in place.

That's why I think there is no need to convert from 16,7 Hz to 50 Hz, and why I think 16,7 Hz networks will never be converted.

Migration from low-voltage DC is another story (and still I think DC will remain in place for many years to come).

Sure, I cannot say what will happen in 100 years from now. But if all Europe will change to 50 Hz AC one day, it will be the DC current to disappear first.
On that, I agree with you. I merely wished to point out that (a) if pursued as a solution, changing the voltage standard would be best done as an incremental project, particularly within the confines of equipment cycles, and done electric block by electric block; and (b) that, outside of the immediate throughput efficiencies esp. viz. Swedish equipment, Danes implementing existing Germanic electrification would not have been wise.

By the way, Danish electrification now means that if the Swedes wish to operate freight trains through to Germany, they're going to have to build/order something that can handle two voltage standards. Since Sweden, in this case, is the variant network (because it predates the implementation of the standard), it is its onus to provide equipment that can operate across international boundaries, if it wants to.

Suburbanist is usually quite wrong--but on that, he's right.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 09:14 PM   #436
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Ok. If Denmark wasn't between two big groups of 16,7 Hz lines I would have agreed that the 50 Hz is a wise solution. As it is in between, I still think it isn't (a good solution). But it's just an opinion. Anyway there are far worse interoperability problems in Europe, mainly the gauge...Spain and Portugal might convert one day, but the 1520 network never will.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 09:20 PM   #437
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Ok. If Denmark wasn't between two big groups of 16,7 Hz lines I would have agreed that the 50 Hz is a wise solution. As it is in between, I still think it isn't (a good solution). But it's just an opinion. Anyway there are far worse interoperability problems in Europe, mainly the gauge...Spain and Portugal might convert one day, but the 1520 network never will.
But that's only in former Soviet Union, isn't it?

By the is there a rail connection between Turkey and it's Asian neighbours and if so is it on a same gauge?
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Old April 10th, 2013, 09:27 PM   #438
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Very interesting debate you guys are having here but I will just answer some of the questions about the Orient Express.

First it was "parked" at the intercity maintenance centre at Kastrup guarded by guards with dogs and whatever so those graffiti bullies won't destroy the train.

The transportation over Øresund was done with a freight locomotive from DB Schenker (most likely BR 185) so the MZ only got the train to Kastrup for its overnight stay.


But some time ago they talked about driving the Malmö - Berlin train over Øresund instead of the Trelleborg ferry so they must be working on getting the permission to travel with passengers at some point.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 09:30 PM   #439
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Ok. If Denmark wasn't between two big groups of 16,7 Hz lines I would have agreed that the 50 Hz is a wise solution. As it is in between, I still think it isn't (a good solution). But it's just an opinion. Anyway there are far worse interoperability problems in Europe, mainly the gauge...Spain and Portugal might convert one day, but the 1520 network never will.
And on that both arguments are valid: the Germanic standard has immediate efficiencies, but the international standard has greater resiliency. Since I am biased in favor of both resiliency (e.g. Jane Jacobs' approach to the urban economy is to treat it as a self-correcting, resilient system, an ecosystem of human endeavor) and standards (partly due to living with the aftereffects of the Standard Railroad of the World), I am biased towards current-standards implementation.

By the way, Germany is the Big Fish in the Western European electric standards game. Germany changing its standards, as a nation, would turn everybody else using their standard into a variant island, electrically speaking, and force still more changeovers.

And by the way, I wouldn't be surprised if Rail Baltica were to change the gauge standard equation in the Baltic states. With a mainline to Europe, they would be able to reorient their local rail networks to the EU, retaining Russian gauge lines primarily to transshipment ports--much as how standard gauge is treated in the Ukraine.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 11:03 PM   #440
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And by the way, I wouldn't be surprised if Rail Baltica were to change the gauge standard equation in the Baltic states. With a mainline to Europe, they would be able to reorient their local rail networks to the EU, retaining Russian gauge lines primarily to transshipment ports--much as how standard gauge is treated in the Ukraine.
What's up with Ukraine? We are staying 1520 for both freight and passenger. Even all the fancy talks "maybe we may build 1435 from Poland to Lviv sometime in future" are now deadlier than dead - we know, we wouldn't.
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