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Old July 9th, 2014, 05:22 PM   #561
dimlys1994
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From Rail Journal:

Quote:
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=542

Axlebox cracks cast further doubt over DSB IC4s
Wednesday, July 09, 2014




Damaged axlebox

FURTHER doubts have emerged over the future of the fleet of 105 IC4 and IC2 DMUs ordered in 2000 by Danish State Railways (DSB) from AnsaldoBreda after the completion of an investigation into cracked axleboxes on the trains.

Following the discovery of cracks in February, DSB commissioned German Rail (DB) engineering consultancy subsidiary DB Systemtechnik to carry out an investigation into the causes and potential solutions to the problem.

The evaluation, which was published on the DSB website on July 8, shows that damage to axleboxes and primary dampers were the result of several factors, which DSB says will require further investigation.

DB Systemtechnik recommends fitting the vehicles with an optimised shock absorber and the wheelslip protection system should also be recalibrated to reduce tread damage. The report suggests testing wheelsets with higher tensile strength and the preparation of detailed maintenance instructions for axleboxes, together with a visual inspection every seven days. New calculations are also recommended to establish the true strength of the axleboxes, taking into account the actual damper force. This data can then be used to develop an optimised axlebox configuration.

DSB says it will now carry out tests on the basis of the report's recommendations, including running and braking technical investigations, residual stresss management and non-destructive testing of the damaged wheels, and development of detailed damages statistics.

Last month DSB announced it would launch a further study to ascertain whether the troubled fleet has a future, particularly in light of plans to electrify a much larger proportion of the Danish network than was envisaged when the trains were ordered in 2000.

"The final report supports the conclusions that were instrumental to DSB's decision to launch a new independent investigation into whether it is feasible and economically reasonable for the fleet to operate with a sufficiently high level of operational stability," says Mr Steen Schougaard Christensen, DSB's maintenance director. "The recommendations of DB Systemtechnik and our operating experience will feed into the overall assessment of whether it is worthwhile continuing with the development of the IC4 and IC2 trains, or whether to launch a Plan B."
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Old July 9th, 2014, 09:25 PM   #562
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The only "Plan B" I see is trying to use the IC4 for 10 years until new electric trains will replace them. Are there better alternatives? I mean, DSB accepted the IC4, so alternative options should have been taken 5 years ago or so.
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Old July 10th, 2014, 02:00 AM   #563
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Well, the Dutch accepted 9 of their V250 trains but managed to close a deal with AnsaldoBreda to get at least a part of their money back (about half?). Given the recent developments and the notorious unreliability of the sets, I can see DSB wanting to get their money back as well. I don't think AnsaldoBreda is willing to close such a deal though, the IC2/IC4 fleet is much larger than the V250 fleet and the sets will probably be much harder to re-sell than the V250's. Also, DSB did a lot of the work themselves so AnsaldoBreda will probably say that the Danes did a lousy job at it...

Regarding a "Plan B", a possibility I see is that DSB invests to keep their current rolling stock operational for a couple more years (which probably means another life expanding overhaul). Should it be impossible to keep the current stock running, then perhaps DSB can rent some coaches from DB and lease some diesel locomotives to run some long distance services so DMUs can be cleared for where they are necessary.

Meanwhile, DSB should start a tender procedure for new EMUs so that those can enter service as soon as electrification of a railway line is complete.
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Old July 10th, 2014, 02:46 AM   #564
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Could it be that the quality of Danish tracks is beyond the specifications for long-term wear, which produces premature defects on repeated stress-impacted components? Axleboxes shouldn't crack like that with just few years of use.

Hopefully adjustments can be made and the trains be put to fulfill their plan on the Danish network
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Old July 10th, 2014, 03:15 AM   #565
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Could it be that the quality of Danish tracks is beyond the specifications for long-term wear, which produces premature defects on repeated stress-impacted components?
Ah yes, cause it couldn't possibly be AnsaldoBreda's fault.


Quote:
Axleboxes shouldn't crack like that with just few years of use.
Exactly, tell that to AnsaldoBreda.




The fanboyism is strong in this one.
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Old July 10th, 2014, 03:30 AM   #566
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Ah yes, cause it couldn't possibly be AnsaldoBreda's fault.

The report cited above doesn't mention an exact cause, so we should keep an open mind to possible obtuse causes of the cracks.

A manufacturing error is possible, a design error less so. There has been some slip-ups on production management at their plants. Hopefully that also gets addresses, IC4 was still a huge money-loser for Ansaldo Breda. They actually lost more money on it than on Fyra. A lot of work had to be re-done and some sets used more than 250% the predicted and budgeted man-hour load.
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Old July 10th, 2014, 08:53 AM   #567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Could it be that the quality of Danish tracks is beyond the specifications for long-term wear, which produces premature defects on repeated stress-impacted components? Axleboxes shouldn't crack like that with just few years of use.

Hopefully adjustments can be made and the trains be put to fulfill their plan on the Danish network
Well, if the problem was with the tracks, other rolling stock should start
having similar problems too, right ?
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Old July 13th, 2014, 12:47 AM   #568
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Funny enough I had my 2nd trip with IC4 today travelling from Esbjerg to Fredericia.

I think that it drives well at good speed but as a regionaltog it doesn´t work very well because the acceleration is rather slow and you can feel when the the train driver shift gears.














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Old July 13th, 2014, 12:50 AM   #569
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Originally Posted by bongo-anders View Post
I think that it drives well at good speed but as a regionaltog it doesn´t work very well because the acceleration is rather slow and you can feel when the the train driver shift gears.

shifts gears? O_o It has an direct mechanical transmission like in a car?
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Old July 13th, 2014, 02:30 AM   #570
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I would think so, it did feel like when you change gear in a bus or truck and its a diesel engine so why not.

I do however think that its a automatic gear somehow but I can ask around and get a proper answer

To compare then I can tell that the old IC3 just got its old engine replaced with some truck engines from Iveco.
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Old July 13th, 2014, 01:29 PM   #571
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its a diesel engine so why not.
Because the diesel engine isn't directly connected to the wheels.

The diesel engine generates electricity, which is used to power the electric engine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel-...c_transmission
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Old July 13th, 2014, 02:00 PM   #572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bongo-anders View Post
I would think so, it did feel like when you change gear in a bus or truck and its a diesel engine so why not.

I do however think that its a automatic gear somehow but I can ask around and get a proper answer

To compare then I can tell that the old IC3 just got its old engine replaced with some truck engines from Iveco.

seems you're right, Wikipedia says it does in fact have mechanical transmission...
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Old July 13th, 2014, 02:44 PM   #573
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Its also feels like that when it accelerated.


But I'm no expert whatsoever it was just my experience sitting in the train.
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Old July 13th, 2014, 06:31 PM   #574
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As far I know, the IC4 have a mechanical transmission (by request of DSB), which is one of the origin of the problems.

Strange request were a problem of the Fyra as well (like an HST-like train cheaper than the others).

I heard that only AnsaldoBreda made an offer to both the NS and DSB's tenders. If this is true, then these two disasters are a mix of incompetence from all sides.
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Old July 13th, 2014, 06:44 PM   #575
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But IC3 works very well with a mechanical transmission so Its not the only reason and so far there haven´t been any problems with it on the IC4.
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Old July 13th, 2014, 09:50 PM   #576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Because the diesel engine isn't directly connected to the wheels. The diesel engine generates electricity, which is used to power the electric engine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel-...c_transmission
Not all diesel trains are diesel electric. It is quite common for DMUs to have direct drive, or hydraulic transmission. Hydraulic transmission is also quite common in locomotives.
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Old July 14th, 2014, 02:05 AM   #577
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Strange request were a problem of the Fyra as well (like an HST-like train cheaper than the others).

I heard that only AnsaldoBreda made an offer to both the NS and DSB's tenders. If this is true, then these two disasters are a mix of incompetence from all sides.
Yes and no. Both the railways and AB made mistakes (and lots of them), but it is still AnsaldoBreda who is responsible for the drama. They are the builder of the rolling stock, not their customers.

It was AnsaldoBreda that said they could build the trains according to the specifications outlined by NS and DSB. That AB were the only remaining bidders (others dropped out during tendering procedures) should've been a warning for the railways ("maybe we want something which is impossible"), but AB should have been responsible enough to know if they can deliver on their promise.

They didn't. They offered rolling stock that matched the specifications on paper, but that did not perform well in reality. The V250 fiasco has come to an end last year, and it looks like the IC4 drama is in it's final chapter as well.

Of course, NS and DSB made huge mistakes and should've bailed out of the V250 and IC4 projects years ago, but this would've left them without trains and huge lawsuits with AnsaldoBreda.
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Old July 14th, 2014, 03:13 AM   #578
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Not all diesel trains are diesel electric. It is quite common for DMUs to have direct drive, or hydraulic transmission. Hydraulic transmission is also quite common in locomotives.
Wow, thanks, learn something new every day!


I thought they were always diesel-electric for the direct 100% torque that electric engines provide.
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Old July 14th, 2014, 09:16 AM   #579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
I thought they were always diesel-electric for the direct 100% torque that electric engines provide.
Electric transmission has indeed very interesting service characteristics, but
a serious drawback : the installed power is three times the useful power
(prime mover + alternator + electric motors) and therefore it is heavy and
expensive. So for rolling stock where weight is a problem, such as DMUs
used for suburban service, this solution is almost never used (can't think
about one single example, actually). Old DMUs used gearboxes, recent ones
all use torque converters. What the OP felt was probably the change of
transmission ratio in the torque converter : some do that continuously, but
others use a cascade of fixed ratios, and as such feel really like a gearbox.
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Old July 14th, 2014, 06:02 PM   #580
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So for rolling stock where weight is a problem, such as DMUs
used for suburban service, this solution is almost never used (can't think
about one single example, actually).

Well... our new FLIRT DMU's use diesel-electric transmission, although the 4-car ones use ultracapacitors to match the acceleration of smaller 2 and 3 car consists...
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