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Old August 8th, 2007, 12:37 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TohrAlkimista View Post
Privatization of the National Railways is a priority for EU.
The idea is that the maintenance of the railways is an enourmous cost for each country.
Each national system, from the worst to the best one, is not profitable and every year national funds have to adjust railways companies accounts.
So EU push single countries to privatize this sector.
Please read through the thread and youll see that privatisation hasnt brought much benefits in this sector, but often quite the contrary actually. I think that the EU simply asks the member states to open the market to the competition and not to privatise the rail companies.


Thats what I posted before:

Quote:
Rail privatisation hasnt worked in many cases.
The privately run rail companies in the US have dissapeared for a large part,
the privatisations in New Zealand and Argentinia have lead to a substantial cutback of rail travel, the partial privatisation in Sweden has led to higher state investments and the biggest private rail company basically went bust which meant that the state had to help out.
Also, the only profitable train companies in Japan are those who serve the main connections between the big cities.
The regional companies still get very high state investments.

Considering Britain:

Yes, more travellers use the train these days, yet the overall costs for the taxpayer rose significantly.
In connection to the privatisation many bad accidents happened and the privatised rail company "Railtrack" went bust in 2001 and had to be nationalized again.
The necessary modernisation of the run down network will cost british taxpayers up to 50 billion pounds.
All british political parties look upon the british rail privatisation as a concept that has failed.

Last edited by GNU; August 8th, 2007 at 12:44 AM.
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Old August 8th, 2007, 01:07 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Denmark View Post
Good for you... however you are forgetting that we don't have a national rail line.. it's all privatised!
Bullshit! DSB (the national railways) is a 100% state owned company and operates around 85% of all passenger trains in Denmark. All railway infastructure (tracks, signalling, stations etc.) are owned and maintained by BaneDanmark, which is a 100% state owned company as well.
Quote:
You also mention that there haven't been build any intercity railway line in this country since the 19th century,, then how exactly do one get to Malmø? Or Funen from Zealand?
I was talking about railways on land. The Great Belt and the Öresunds connections are more like links between the lines.
Quote:
But yes there haven't been any completely new lines build as we already have the country covered - where would you build it?
Yes, Denmark is covered with a completely outdated and ineffective system that doesnt belong here in the 21th century. There has for the last 30 years or so, been a serious need for new intercity lines between Århus and Vejle, as well as Middelfart and Odense, just to name a few. You can clearly see on a map that all the important railways still runs in the same trace/path they did 100 years ago.
Quote:
You also forget to mention the HUGE exhanging of old track currently beng done... ( why there are the delays and the current temp. speedlimit )
10 years too late according to experts, and there were also plenty of delays and speed reductions before they started on replacing the tracks. If they did it in time, then there wouldnt be any problems with delays or safety now.
Quote:
As for it being the worst in Western Europe I guess you don't travel much... while the top speed IS low the quality is way above just about everywhere I've used train in Europe.. inc. places like Norway, the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany...
That is extremely untrue, and I have travelled a lot by train in both Germany, Italy and Sweden. You can feel that the tracks in those countries (even on local railways) are much better than in Denmark, and thats why their trains can drive faster and smoother. The Danish stations are very poor too, with some lousy ineffective ticket machines if you can even find them. You can only find one ticket machine on Copenhagen central station that takes cash, and it only takes coins.

Last edited by Wallaroo; August 8th, 2007 at 01:36 AM.
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Old August 8th, 2007, 02:00 AM   #63
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The splitting-up solution for confirming the EU legislation was also applied in Belgium, but in 3 parts: Infrabel (maintains the tracks), NMBS/SNCB (runs the trains) and the NMBS/SNCB Holding (coordination between the companies).

Could it be more difficult? I doubt it Oh well, we'll see what the future brings I'm glad nobody is even thinking about privatisation... As it is one of the densest - if not the densest - railway networks, there are lines that aren't profitable, but still needed for the public. People often complain about the company, but in the end it turns out that there's not too much to complain about actually...

Also, I believe there's now one other rail company also running on the Belgian railtracks... Not much of a concurrent though I think.

About that 'ugly train': if it would be repainted, it would actually be quite a nice train indeed. However, a very beautiful train with little comfort giving rough rides would be a lot worse than the opposite

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Old August 8th, 2007, 09:53 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallaroo View Post
Bullshit! DSB (the national railways) is a 100% state owned company and operates around 85% of all passenger trains in Denmark.
And why does it only run 85% ? Mind explaining me what companies like Arriva is doing here if the we don't have privatization?

DSB have a some 100years + headstart on everybody else, they have the trains, the tranied personal and the repair stations so no wonder they won't lose all lines in a decade... but what About in 20 or 50 years?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallaroo View Post
All railway infastructure (tracks, signalling, stations etc.) are owned and maintained by BaneDanmark, which is a 100% state owned company as well.
As it should be, when I'm talking about privatization I'm talking about the operators, not the tracks!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallaroo View Post
You can clearly see on a map that all the important railways still runs in the same trace/path they did 100 years ago.
Yes, because people own the land and it would be extremely expensive to buy them out to save 10-15min CPH-Århus..

The upcomming Zealand-Jutland bridge makes sense, hence I support it, but straightening all the track on the current lines would be a waste of money as there's too many station to reach a reasonal speed that justifies the track investments..

Heck I'd love there to be TGV style lines here... but I'm not willing to pay 4 times the price of a plane ticket to get them just to save some 30min..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallaroo View Post
I have travelled a lot by train in both Germany, Italy and Sweden. You can feel that the tracks in those countries (even on local railways) are much better than in Denmark, and thats why their trains can drive faster and smoother.
Germany has the ICE a high speed line like the TGV - ofcause the rails there will be of a higher quality... but have you tried local lines?

I had the joy of being delyed one friggin hour on the strecth between Lübeck and Puttgarden not even a month ago... why, well because the hole signal system crashed... so believe me bro, we're are not the only country with problems... and their tracks are as bumby and twisted as ours..

Also must say that contrary to what I have heard I found the Dutch system disapointing.. ( and I'm not even going to mention the trains here )

I'll agree that the Danish system needs repairs and investment, but we are FAR from the worst outthere.. ( and this comes from a guy who used to go Copenhagen-Skive 2 times a week for 4 months at a time.. )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallaroo View Post
The Danish stations are very poor too, with some lousy ineffective ticket machines if you can even find them.
In the rural areas in Jutland I'll agree - but the main stations on Zealand seems fine to me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallaroo View Post
You can only find one ticket machine on Copenhagen central station that takes cash, and it only takes coins.
Then why not just use your Dankort like everybody else... or a manned counter if paying in cash is so important to you..

Have you btw checked out the Tivoli facing entrence - plenty of various ticket mashines there...


BTW do you mind sharing where you live with us - I'm guessing Funen?
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Old August 8th, 2007, 11:11 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallaroo View Post

That is extremely untrue, and I have travelled a lot by train in both Germany, Italy and Sweden. You can feel that the tracks in those countries (even on local railways) are much better than in Denmark, and thats why their trains can drive faster and smoother.
I've been driving trains in the same countries and I agree that there systems seems better, but I'm also pretty sure that you will find worse systems than the danish in eastern europe for example!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallaroo View Post
The Danish stations are very poor too, with some lousy ineffective ticket machines if you can even find them. You can only find one ticket machine on Copenhagen central station that takes cash, and it only takes coins.
Sound more like it's you who are poor, not the danish stations - everybody is using credit cards these days. If you wanna buy a ticket with cash go to the ticket office and buy one.
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Old August 8th, 2007, 05:24 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by OettingerCroat View Post
it looks like a bumper train
And thats exactly what they are. They consist of 3 carriages (one of them with an engine) and can be coupled together very fast and easily - up to 4 x 3 carriages. These trains have been very succesfull, and i guess they are one of the few positive things when it comes to DSB. They have also been sold to both Israel and California.




Here is one with the new painting on Hamburg Hbf. They have been driving down there directly from Århus for some years now.

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Old August 8th, 2007, 06:30 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Denmark View Post
And did I mention the next gen IC4 is operational in parts of the country - can't wait to try it!



It's interior: ( large picture ) http://www.dsb.dk/cs/BlobServer?blob...&ssbinary=true
Sure glad you mentioned it! The IC4 trains might be the biggest disaster in danish railway history, except for accidents of course. DSB have ordered 83 of them back in december 2000 from AnsaldoBreda, at a total cost of 5 billion dkr = 700 million €. They have now been delayed for more than 3 1/2 years due to extensive technical problems, and only one of them drives in test service today. They are supposed to replace the IC3 trains on the main lines, so that that the IC3 then can replace the old regional and inter-regional trains in the pictures below.

Nothing have happened yet!






I think that DSB should have ordered the below Super Voyager diesel trains with tilting function instead of the IC4, so that they can drive at higher speeds through all the sharp curves on the danish network. They are very reliable and have the same top speed as the IC4. They are not as wide as the IC4 though, but can propably be delivered with a wider body.


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Old August 8th, 2007, 07:23 PM   #68
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In Belgium we have simular trains like in Denmark. We call them 'Danish noses". Not very beautifull but very good technically and very luxurious.


Photo: Luc Donners
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Old August 8th, 2007, 09:52 PM   #69
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Regarding "privatization" in Sweden.

The "privatization" has so far worked out fine in Sweden. The high investments in infrastructure has nothing to do with it. The free freight market now have numerous of operators competiting. On the profitable day traffic passenger market, the profit driven state company SJ AB still has monopoly. The night traffic is however free (e.g. Veolia competiting with SJ AB on the same line). Counties can build up their own parallel traffic system within their borders (e.g. Öresund trains).

The main key is not to privatize the infrastructure. In Sweden the government funds the infrastructure through the authority Banverket.
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Old August 8th, 2007, 10:52 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallaroo View Post
Nothing have happened yet!
Nothing have happened?

The IR4 have taken over all the RE lines I've used the last 7 years.. except for the CPH-Kalundborg line that is operated by the Litra AB ( double decker )

Heck even the small streches in Northern Zealand is now covered by Modern Siemens trains ( Litra MQ )
IR4


Litra AB


Litra MQ


I haven't seen the old ( "bumletog" ) model in years - where the heck are they still operating?


When googleling pictures you might want to google some present ones - DSB haven't operated with red wagons in years!



Again I ask if you would share where in the country you live... I'm starting to doubt you even live in DK!
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Old August 9th, 2007, 12:57 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Denmark View Post
And why does it only run 85% ? Mind explaining me what companies like Arriva is doing here if the we don't have privatization?
They have only privatized 15% of the network where Arriva happened to win over DSB.
Quote:
DSB have a some 100years + headstart on everybody else, they have the trains, the tranied personal and the repair stations so no wonder they won't lose all lines in a decade... but what About in 20 or 50 years?
The politicians are already talking about selling DSB now that they have won the licitation on Kystbanen and in southern Sweden over other companies. It might have improved the companys value a lot.
Quote:
Yes, because people own the land and it would be extremely expensive to buy them out to save 10-15min CPH-Århus..

The upcomming Zealand-Jutland bridge makes sense, hence I support it, but straightening all the track on the current lines would be a waste of money as there's too many station to reach a reasonal speed that justifies the track investments..

Heck I'd love there to be TGV style lines here... but I'm not willing to pay 4 times the price of a plane ticket to get them just to save some 30min..
You can see on a map that the Århus - Horsens line takes a gigantic detour to the east - to a small town where the trains havent stopped for decades. The Middelfart - Odense line is very curvy too and has no stops for intercity trains at all. I think there should have been build new lines on these two stretches decades ago, and it would have saved passengers at least 40 minutes with a high speed train.
Quote:
Germany has the ICE a high speed line like the TGV - ofcause the rails there will be of a higher quality... but have you tried local lines?

I had the joy of being delyed one friggin hour on the strecth between Lübeck and Puttgarden not even a month ago... why, well because the hole signal system crashed... so believe me bro, we're are not the only country with problems... and their tracks are as bumby and twisted as ours..
I have taken the Euro City train across the Danish/German border in southern Jutland numerous times, and the tracks on the south side are much better than in Denmark. There is only a lousy bumpy single track in southern Jutland, where the ME diesel locomotive pulls the EC wagons at 120 km/h. At the German border they put a Siemens locomotive in front of the wagons, that pulls them at 180 km/h on a nice double track all the way down to Hamburg. The difference is quite remarkeble.
Quote:
Then why not just use your Dankort like everybody else... or a manned counter if paying in cash is so important to you...
I didnt have one for a period of time, and neither do many others. Kids under 18 years dont have credit cards either, so it aint easy when the ticket office is closed.
Quote:
BTW do you mind sharing where you live with us - I'm guessing Funen?
No, I live in Århus.
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Old August 9th, 2007, 02:15 AM   #72
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Hmm... okay.. well, I'll never agree with you on the worst railway system point...

But I will give you some slack when it comes to Jutland and it's rail lines as Zealand is where we seems to get most of the investment and new stuff ( rightfully ofcause )

Back in my time of serving I was surpised to see this train model ( http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/dk/...1305-05_02.jpg ) running Struer-Århus

But that was just for a few months before Arriva got their own modern Seimens trains like the ones DSB are using in Helsingør..

While some stretches in some countries may be of a very good quality you have to be careful not to judge the hole system based on that..
A tourist going Malmø-CPH-Odense would probable think we had the world's best.. where a guy going the lines and areas you mention in Jutland may be the exact opposit..

There's always room for improvement...
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Old August 9th, 2007, 11:14 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Denmark View Post
Back in my time of serving I was surpised to see this train model ( http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/dk/...1305-05_02.jpg ) running Struer-Århus
As far as I know they still use these trains from Esbjerg to Tønder (or some of them are).
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Old August 9th, 2007, 11:18 AM   #74
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Judging from this map only I would say that Norway doesn't have a better network than Denmark. It looks like Oslo has poor links to the other big Scandinavian cities. A line Oslo-Stockholm and another Oslo-Gothenburg-Malmo-Copenhagen would seem like a good idea to me.

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Old August 9th, 2007, 01:19 PM   #75
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Old August 9th, 2007, 07:30 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
Oslo-Gothenburg-Malmo-Copenhagen would seem like a good idea to me.
I agree, but it's a rute you'd normally fly or sail ( several ferry connections available )..
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Old August 9th, 2007, 07:36 PM   #77
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It seems like a very dense network for a country with only 5 million people.
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Old August 9th, 2007, 08:17 PM   #78
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DSB is a state company and all of the rail track in Denmark is state owned. DSB does not bid on railway service in Denmark, it controls and plans it and then runs it.

The only places where DSB does not control service are lokalebaner, the small local railways that are usually owned by their Amt (County) and are often run by them (or a company they have set up) as well. DSB also does not control all of the Øresund routes because that travels through Sweden and has had to share operating it with the swedish railways.

Venstre and the rest of the political right in Denmark have been planning on privatising DSB for years now but will not do it before the railway in is good shape and since, in all likelyhood (and this is not meant to be politically biased), they will lose the next election to the left (which relies on Socialist and Communist parties to get into office), I doubt privatisation will ever happen, at least not anytime soon.

With regards to DSB being the worst railway in Western Europe, I think that whoever wrote that must not travel much.

The Danish railways are almost 100% grade seperated unlike the fastest routes in Germany, so they don't get delayed by someone's cow or Volkswagen.

They have almost entirely newer trains (at least less than 20 years old) and they are all kept in very good condition and comfortably designed, which is not something you could say for DB in Germany. Look at a regional train in West Germany and then look at the oldest regional train in Denmark, you'll see the difference.

Almost all the stations have been remodeled within the past ten-fifteen years and while they are sometimes trashed by teenagers and the like, they are normally kept in good condition. Even small town stations still recieve regular service and most have a DSB office where you can buy tickets or get help.

Tickets are relitavely cheap (compared to everything else in DK) and affordable for students and elderly.

There are few accidents (see previous grade seperation).

The railway is in the midst of an electrification programme, which progresses every year.

And finally, DSB does not really need high speed service other than maybe on the routes that go to Hamburg and a Stockholm route (if there is one). I used to go visit my family up in Vendsyssel when I lived in Næstved (aka from one end of the country to the extreme other) and it took less than six hours. That usually included a self planned lunch break in Odense while I switched trains. If the worst you can do from one end of the country to the other is 5,5 hours, what is the point of building HSR?


The one major problem that exists is the state of the track itself, and that is being worked on. BaneDanmark is in the process of replacing track over the entire country, they just haven't had the funds from the government to do it all. That's why you get summer delays and things like that. I would like it if they did that faster but it will eventually get done.
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Old August 10th, 2007, 02:10 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
Judging from this map only I would say that Norway doesn't have a better network than Denmark. It looks like Oslo has poor links to the other big Scandinavian cities. A line Oslo-Stockholm and another Oslo-Gothenburg-Malmo-Copenhagen would seem like a good idea to me.
According to the site of the Swedish Railways 2-3 Oslo-Stockholm I.C. trains run daily.

Oslo-Cph runs with 1 xchange in Got.
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Old August 12th, 2007, 12:25 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milwaukee-københavn View Post
DSB is a state company and all of the rail track in Denmark is state owned. DSB does not bid on railway service in Denmark, it controls and plans it and then runs it.

The only places where DSB does not control service are lokalebaner, the small local railways that are usually owned by their Amt (County) and are often run by them (or a company they have set up) as well. DSB also does not control all of the Øresund routes because that travels through Sweden and has had to share operating it with the swedish railways.
There is open access in Denmark, ARRIVA will soon start services between Copenhagen and Arhus. This will be the first real direct competition in Denmark.

But the new Øresund tender has been won by the DSB in cooperation FirstGroup. So they won't be cooperating with the SJ anymore in the near future.

Quote:
They have almost entirely newer trains (at least less than 20 years old) and they are all kept in very good condition and comfortably designed, which is not something you could say for DB in Germany. Look at a regional train in West Germany and then look at the oldest regional train in Denmark, you'll see the difference.
German railways, the DB and most of the private railways have invested heavily in new regional rolling stock. The DSB profited from this, because it could easily lease some new bi-level coaches that were initially intended for the DB. Because of the big German orders the manufacturer, Bombardier could sell them to the lease company without delaying the DB's orders to much. That's benefiting from mass production, too bad they choose AnsaldoBreda for the IC4, were something like this isn't possible.

Quote:
The railway is in the midst of an electrification program, which progresses every year.
Most of the new electrification in Denmark is for the S-tog services around Copenhagen, that has a different electric current than the main lines.
The decision to buy IC4 and IC2 as DMU's instead of EMU's was made because it was decided not to electrify more big routes. Now only the freight route from Germany to Sweden is electrified, DSB is now even selling off all of it's remaining electric loco's. They only had the 30 year old type EA electric loco's left, see here. And the DSB is not buying any new loco's, especially since they don't run any freight trains anymore since DSB Gods was sold to Railion (DB Logistics).
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