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Old October 23rd, 2016, 05:55 PM   #961
bongo-anders
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Good points.


And that is why I´m happy to hear that ze Germans is talking about making their railway from Lübeck to Fehmarn at 200 km/h instead of 160 km/h.

The rest of the line to Hamburg will be 160 km/h but its only around 60 kilometers or something like that.


This is the situation at the other end of that line where the top speed is 250 km/h (well 230 km/h in the sharp curve around Køge).

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Old October 26th, 2016, 08:44 PM   #962
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The bike lane next to the railway at Køge is supposed to be finished in November and it starts to look like something.









A little bit further north it looks like the railway connection from the high speed line to Lille Syd (Little South) looks done but I can´t see if the railway is connected from under the motorway and S-trainline.












And a view of the station.









And the S-train platforms is just visible behind the noise barriers.


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Old October 27th, 2016, 12:38 PM   #963
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The electrification of Lunderskov Esbjerg is off course delayed to the end of April, originally it was at the start of the 2017 timetable.

So it is expected that DSB can start regular service with electric powered trains in May 2007.


http://www.ft.dk/samling/20161/almde...40/1680329.pdf
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Old October 27th, 2016, 04:26 PM   #964
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Was there a reason given why it took longer than expected?
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Old October 28th, 2016, 02:06 AM   #965
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Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
In the case of Denmark I might agree. Living in France, as I do, I can assure you that the difference between 200 kph and true high-speed is significant when the inter-regional trains cover distances of 500-700 km. Your point about "the vast majority of passengers" is moreover IMO a bit flippant. The vast majority of passengers are using trains for a relatively short daily commute and, yes, HS lines are irrelevant for their purposes. But does this imply that one shouldn't invest in a strong long-distance rail network as well?

The Belgians initially made similar arguments about HS rail: their country is small (the size of Jutland, I believe), so why should they be expected to invest in 300 kph lines as opposed to a more pragmatic approach? However, the Belgian railways are part of a larger long-distance network tying together Paris, London, Amsterdam and the German industrial heartland. The speed on intra-Belgian lines was not just about freighting people from Brussels to Antwerp, and in the end the Belgian authorities yielded to the pressure. In the case of Denmark this is unlikely to happen, because the southern neighbour is Germany. The Germans are reluctant to go all-out on HS, and insofar as they are willing to invest in railways their main priority seems to be the east-west connections rather than their relatively unpopulated north. In other words, truly HS solutions are not necessarily needed for domestic Danish purposes, and there's no cross-country considerations altering that calculation.
But the french high speed system post big losses as all other such systems. There are so many technical, practical and economic issues with high speed that it just isnt worth it generally. As you said yourself, there isnt really any demand for it. It doesnt suit actual needs.

It even ignores the trues strength of rail, linking city centres. The great thing about rail is not getting from A to B in 100 minutes but from A to B in 110 minutes, making 4 stop along the way, linking six city centres in virtually the same time and much much cheaper. In reality it would even be better for those travelling from A to B only because there will be more passengers and thus higher frequency which often matters more than speed.

And thats the core problem with high speed. It facinates some people more than blring issues like frequency. The danish aarhus-copenhagen two-hour link is based on just one train per hour.other trains will be de!iberately slowed down. But would most people not prefer 4-6 slightly slower trains per hour? I think so. But high frequency isny sexy enough, apparently.
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Old October 28th, 2016, 02:21 AM   #966
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The contrasting thoughts, in combination with the price tag of our first and only HST line, necked further plans in the Netherlands. It is indeed very important to look further than the existing stream of passengers. Many people here see Amsterdam just as a terminus of international traffic, and use that stupid pretext to prevent an HST or even any speed improvement to Germany. No, even within our borders. However, we MUST look further!

Reducing our travel times by increasing maximum speeds to 160 or 200, let alone to 250 or 300 on longer distances can make the crucial difference within a few minutes: the first category between 60 and 90 minutes, which ultimately decides people from the Gelderland (Arnhem, Nijmegen) and Brabant (specifically Tilburg-Eindhoven) urban areas to go to the Randstad by train or not. The way of thinking in crucial travel times (1 hour to each city to be able to commute) in Denmark is a wise step as the psychological effect of the positive 'just an hour travelling' is bigger than the negative 'just a few minutes shorter'. Also, consider that Amsterdam is an important airline hub, so an HST line to that city does by far not mean an HST on a loose end, let alone the people that live in our country. Speeding it up can also make more people deciding to travel via AMS or FRA airports rather than the other, or with DUS, even eliminating the need of having to serve a specific destination by both airports as the catchment areas would overlap enormously.

If Denmark speeds up the line towards the Fehmarnbelttunnel, that would of course require a lot of investment, but the connection to Hamburg and even Berlin could be so much faster, even more when Germany invests as well. Copenhagen would be a transport node that connects the mainland to the Scandinavian peninsula instead of another stop on a freak line that does not make sense to travel by instead of by plane. And indeed involves distances of 500-700km. Kastrup will be very happy as well, as Germany comes in sight as well. National interests like these should never be underestimated.

Yes, I hate the short-sightedness of our government towards rail transport, like if 140kph, or 160 at max would be enough to serve the whole country, while upgraded 200 lines could bring Groningen and Maastricht within Amsterdam's commute time like Vejle and Kolding to Copenhagen (according to the hour plan), Cologne to Frankfurt or Dijon to Paris.
Is it really short sightedness not to pump billions into systems which are proven economic failures and would be even worse in your examples

Very few people will travel by train from denmark/sweden to Germany and beyond. It makes zero sense. Flying is much cheaper and faster over such distances.

You are right about the simplicity and psychological effect of the hour-plan but the loss of frequency alone makes it not worth it, at least not this way. The strongest railway in europe is probably the swiss. The fastest growing is the british. Neither has any real high speed. Spain now has the most high speed stuff in europe. And all heavily subsidised. What they dont have is passengers. We are not slaves to technology. Just because uts possible to construct, doesnt mean it makes sense.
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Old October 29th, 2016, 10:16 AM   #967
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Originally Posted by thomasKing View Post
Is it really short sightedness not to pump billions into systems which are proven economic failures and would be even worse in your examples

Very few people will travel by train from denmark/sweden to Germany and beyond. It makes zero sense. Flying is much cheaper and faster over such distances.

You are right about the simplicity and psychological effect of the hour-plan but the loss of frequency alone makes it not worth it, at least not this way. The strongest railway in europe is probably the swiss. The fastest growing is the british. Neither has any real high speed. Spain now has the most high speed stuff in europe. And all heavily subsidised. What they dont have is passengers. We are not slaves to technology. Just because uts possible to construct, doesnt mean it makes sense.
They do not really have much 300kph, but what they do have is a strong network of higher-speed upgraded tracks that support 200kph. And by the way, the UK is investing in 350kph track. That last one does not make sense for the Danish, but 200kph does, as the investments are a lot smaller. By the way, Scandinavian countries (rich and sparsely populated) are not the ones just building roads and rail for profitability, that does not make sense for these countries, otherwise many people still used ferries in Denmark and Norway would be pretty much inaccessible.
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Old October 31st, 2016, 01:46 PM   #968
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But the french high speed system post big losses as all other such systems. There are so many technical, practical and economic issues with high speed that it just isnt worth it generally.
That depends on your definition of "worth it". Many railway projects generate financial deficits because they are designed to provide public services the benefits of which are felt by a much wider range of persons than the actual passengers. Some of the French HS lines have given a shot in the arm to the economic development of previously sleepy provincial towns. This is a tangible benefit for which the French tax payers are willing to pay. If you say that all infrastructure that cannot finance itself is not needed then you are implicitly saying that the Copenhagen Metro is unnecessary. For that matter, you are also saying that the US Postal Service is unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by thomasKing View Post
It even ignores the trues strength of rail, linking city centres. The great thing about rail is not getting from A to B in 100 minutes but from A to B in 110 minutes, making 4 stop along the way, linking six city centres in virtually the same time and much much cheaper.
If this was only about 10 minutes total then I might agree. However, according to French calculations each additional stop of a TGV prolongs the travel time to the end station by 8-10 minutes. Hence four additional stops equates around 35 additional travel minutes. Surely, the optimal network solution is to have relatively few stops at large towns on a main HS line, and good "feeder services" running between these stations, picking passengers up from the smaller towns and delivering them to the next junction point on the line?

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Originally Posted by thomasKing View Post
The danish aarhus-copenhagen two-hour link is based on just one train per hour.other trains will be de!iberately slowed down. But would most people not prefer 4-6 slightly slower trains per hour? I think so. But high frequency isny sexy enough, apparently.
These trains would run almost empty. I simply cannot believe that there's a market for 4-6 trains per hour between Copenhagen, Odense and Aarhus. So for the only European country I know (others might know more?) to have inserted twice-per-hour service on their intercity lines is Switzerland. And the density of population in the north-west of their country is a heck-of-a-lot higher than in Denmark. Perhaps the Dutch and the Brits have done something similar? But hardly 6 intercity trains per hour.
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Old October 31st, 2016, 02:28 PM   #969
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So for the only European country I know (others might know more?) to have inserted twice-per-hour service on their intercity lines is Switzerland. And the density of population in the north-west of their country is a heck-of-a-lot higher than in Denmark. Perhaps the Dutch and the Brits have done something similar? But hardly 6 intercity trains per hour.
Between Basel and Zurich, the line I know the best, there are up to 5 intercity trains per hour. Two nonstop (53 min) and three making 3-5 stops (1:05 and 1:11) and using two entirely different lines.

How many trains per hour between Paris and Lyon? Surely more than one.
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Old October 31st, 2016, 02:37 PM   #970
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So for the only European country I know (others might know more?) to have inserted twice-per-hour service on their intercity lines is Switzerland. And the density of population in the north-west of their country is a heck-of-a-lot higher than in Denmark. Perhaps the Dutch and the Brits have done something similar? But hardly 6 intercity trains per hour.
In the Netherlands all Intercity trains, except for the international services, provide at least twice an hour service. See the map: Wikipedia: InterCity Netherlands. On some relations, like Amsterdam-Rotterdam there are at least 4 regular Intercity services an hour and also 4 Intercity Direct services an hour.
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Old October 31st, 2016, 02:53 PM   #971
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If Denmark speeds up the line towards the Fehmarnbelttunnel, that would of course require a lot of investment, but the connection to Hamburg and even Berlin could be so much faster, even more when Germany invests as well. Copenhagen would be a transport node that connects the mainland to the Scandinavian peninsula instead of another stop on a freak line that does not make sense to travel by instead of by plane. And indeed involves distances of 500-700km. Kastrup will be very happy as well, as Germany comes in sight as well. National interests like these should never be underestimated.

Yes, I hate the short-sightedness of our government towards rail transport, like if 140kph, or 160 at max would be enough to serve the whole country, while upgraded 200 lines could bring Groningen and Maastricht within Amsterdam's commute time like Vejle and Kolding to Copenhagen (according to the hour plan), Cologne to Frankfurt or Dijon to Paris.

Originaly the main benefactor of the Fehmarnbelt-link were freight traffic when it opened in 1963. Up until the 1990's with the bridges on Storebælt and Øresund the discussions for a fixed link were mostly fixated around two lanes of highway and one track of rail (it should also be noted that until the 1990's the Danish and German states' railway operatives, DSB and DB together, owned the whole ferry link. Had this still been the case, it would have simplified the German planning approval process a lot since the now privately-owned Scandlines only approach to the fixed link is to stall the process as much as possible, and given their size and wealth they are buying all German legalese expertise more efficient than other organizations can, writing at large for almost every aspect to the project that has to be replied in a way that is bullet-proof. Welfare for lawyers would be another way to describe the whole situation, essentialy buying time for Scandlines to suck up more wealth from their customers in the mean time. No one believes they will continue their ferry traffic after the tunnel has been opened but one way to buy time which is now being implemented in the project has been to demand costly upgrades for the roads leading up to the ferry terminals). Freight has been one of the main reasons for the whole rail link in the first place (hence the large rail yards on both sides of Fehmarn next to the ferry terminals). When the Store Bælt bridge was opened trains were suddenly rerouted to a 160 kms of detour which clogs up traffic across Denmark given the speed differences in freight and passenger trains. It was also around that time (1990's) that high speed passenger rail seemed feasible to and from Scandinavian mainland as there had been large upgrades to the rail network connectiong to these bridges in Denmark and Sweden.



Hence when the treaty between Denmark and Germany was signed in 2008 it was explicity stated that the bridges on StorstrØmmen and from Fehmarn to mainland Germany were not to be included in the upgrade of the rail and road link except for electrification. It was only when these old and dilapidated single-track bridges (the Danish bridge was built in the 1930's and have barley been renovated since, especially not after most of the road traffic shifted to the new Faro motorway bridge in the 1980's. Fehmarnsund was 30 yrs younger, but suffered from heavier loads stressing the bridge especially as it it the only road bridge to the island too) were deemed to be infeasible that it suddenly made more sense to upgrade for high speed passenger rail too. There are still no plans for a speed increase between Hamburg and Lübeck (max 160 km/h but with many restrictions in places, several grade crossings). Given the German planning process I expect that once the tunnel is complete it will feel like a breeze to travel between Copenhagen and Lübeck (where there will be new, electrified double-track rail all the way) and be a slow, tortous and bottlenecked continuation to Hamburg (where there are not only a reduced speed but also a lot of regional commuter trains and S-bahn that'll suck up the capacity. Yes there's a project to extend the S-bahn to Bad Oldesloe mid-way to Lübeck with new tracks and grade separations, but as said, given German planning when it comes to infrastructure I wouldn't hold my horses they'll stick to the nor any schedule.)
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Old October 31st, 2016, 05:46 PM   #972
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How many trains per hour between Paris and Lyon? Surely more than one.
Yes, but it's a bit difficult to be exact because the French TGVs (regrettably!) do not follow a fixed hourly schedule. On average there are two non-stop trains between Paris and the old central station in Lyon. And there's a third train connecting Paris and the outlying St. Exupery (by the airport) station.

In addition to this there is any number of trains servicing the towns and communities between Paris and Lyon, but this is done using the legacy railway line that predates the HS line. - And never the twain shall meet...
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Old October 31st, 2016, 05:47 PM   #973
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Old November 1st, 2016, 11:26 PM   #974
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Was there a reason given why it took longer than expected?

Sorry for the late reply.

This is google translates version of the official document, I hope it explains it


The reasons for the delay
The Rail Net Denmark's view that the primary reason for the delay is that the supplier has not
complete design in time in relation to the execution of the project in the field. It was assumed that the supplier had to undertake detailed design and execution simultaneously. Net Denmark, however,
been noted that the mobilization has been difficult for the supplier. this delayed
detailed design, as well as lack and unstable supplies, has resulted in the construction work is not
progressed according to plan.
Furthermore, it has been difficult to adapt new track closures for the postponed work.
Track Blocks and blocks of the areas you are working in, has due to delay no longer
been located and notified of the rate at which track barring process requires. It has hampered
the process of providing the necessary new entanglements. There has initiated a close
coordinating work on this subject, while evaluating the barring pattern from this stretch and
continue the experience for the workers to come to the following projects.
Net Denmark has worked closely with the supplier of various remedial measures
blue. by separation of occupancy permit, rental of equipment, staff training, increased
cooperation on track closures etc.
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Old November 2nd, 2016, 02:12 AM   #975
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In the Netherlands all Intercity trains, except for the international services, provide at least twice an hour service. See the map: Wikipedia: InterCity Netherlands. On some relations, like Amsterdam-Rotterdam there are at least 4 regular Intercity services an hour and also 4 Intercity Direct services an hour.
Same for most IC lines in Belgium. But we are indeed not speaking about the same population density.

Envoyé de mon GT-I9505 en utilisant Tapatalk
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Old November 2nd, 2016, 08:05 PM   #976
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Train ride from Fredericia in the western part of Denmark to Copenhagen all the way out on the east coast of Denmark.

Interesting bits are

00:10 to 05:30 exiting Fredericia and crossing the Lillebælt bridge.
46:00 to 55:30 crossing the Storebælt fixed link
1:12:00 to 1:16:30 Through Ringsted station and the works on the hih speed rail where the first tracks a visible.
1:25:00 to the end. The very busy line from where Nordvestbanen meets the main line and continues to Copenhagen.


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Old November 4th, 2016, 11:00 AM   #977
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From Rail Journal:

Quote:
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=523

Tracklaying begins on Copenhagen - Ringsted high-speed line
Thursday, November 03, 2016



DANISH infrastructure manager Banedanmark marked the start of tracklaying on the Copenhagen - Køge - Ringsted high-speed line on October 28, when the first 10 sleepers were lowered into position by Denmark’s transport minister Mr Hans-Christian Schmidt

Banedanmark says most of the major earthworks and structures are now complete on the 60km line and ballasting is underway

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Old November 10th, 2016, 04:12 PM   #978
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This thread on Jernbanen.dk has some updated photos on the lectrification on Lunderskov-Esbjerg.


http://www.jernbanen.dk/forum/index....read&id=113652
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Old November 11th, 2016, 06:52 PM   #979
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The track laying train has almost reach Ejbyvej in Køge.
The train started in Ringsted two weeks ago.
http://map.krak.dk/m/K3y7z

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Old November 16th, 2016, 03:02 PM   #980
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The best place for trainspotting on the new high speed line is finished, its the bicycle lane from Campus to Køge Nord that is ready for use.


First I thought it wasn´t open yet because the signs for the rerouting was still in place and there was heavy construction machines at work.
But when I came over the the campus I realised that it was open.

So southbound I took pictures from the parking lot and northbound from the bicycle lane itself.















And heading north again.





























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