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Old August 12th, 2007, 01:02 AM   #81
mlm
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Originally Posted by Chris1491 View Post
But, is the Danish railroad important for Denmark? I mean, why put large amounts of money in it, while nobody uses it?
Well it's not like nobody uses it. In 2006 there was a total of ~163 million passengers on the trains (normal trains and S-Trains, a little more than half was on the S-Trains).

I agree though, that the Danish systems need upgrading badly.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Denmark View Post
I haven't seen the old ( "bumletog" ) model in years - where the heck are they still operating?
Well, DSB seems to use them in the evening and some early mornings on lines like Herning-Vejle. Atleast I was with one of them about a month ago. Most of the trains used there are IC3 tough. And then we have the new Arriva trains of course, which seems quite good.
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Old August 12th, 2007, 04:48 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
There is open access in Denmark, ARRIVA will soon start services between Copenhagen and Arhus. This will be the first real direct competition in Denmark.
I had never heard about this. I was under the impression from the few times that I have talked to people in DSB and the Transport Ministry that they were planning on waiting to begin privatised services until the majority of rails were fixed. I hope we are not on our way down the same route as Britian.

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German railways, the DB and most of the private railways have invested heavily in new regional rolling stock. The DSB profited from this, because it could easily lease some new bi-level coaches that were initially intended for the DB. Because of the big German orders the manufacturer, Bombardier could sell them to the lease company without delaying the DB's orders to much. That's benefiting from mass production, too bad they choose AnsaldoBreda for the IC4, were something like this isn't possible.
DSB has continually invested in better trains than DB. The IC4 is a bit of a fiasco but all of the IC trains are still of a much better quality than anything found on DB lines. Most of the DB regional trains are awful, many are also very old. I would rather have better quality trains and have to wait longer to get them than just buy off the shelf.

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Most of the new electrification in Denmark is for the S-tog services around Copenhagen, that has a different electric current than the main lines.
The decision to buy IC4 and IC2 as DMU's instead of EMU's was made because it was decided not to electrify more big routes. Now only the freight route from Germany to Sweden is electrified, DSB is now even selling off all of it's remaining electric loco's. They only had the 30 year old type EA electric loco's left, see here. And the DSB is not buying any new loco's, especially since they don't run any freight trains anymore since DSB Gods was sold to Railion (DB Logistics).
According to Banedanmarks website, they are planning on electifying Frederencia-Århus. They are also planning on electrifying Ringsted-Nykøbing Falster-Femeren with the possibility of a bridge to Rostok, and are working on electrifying from Ringsted- through Odense- to Padborg. So, al in all, that is a pretty big portion of the Danish railways. The Litra ER-FR-FR-ER trains (IC3, I think) are all electric and meant to be used for both regional and long-distance traffic.
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Old August 12th, 2007, 10:18 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by milwaukee-københavn View Post
The IC4 is a bit of a fiasco but all of the IC trains are still of a much better quality than anything found on DB lines. Most of the DB regional trains are awful, many are also very old.
Have you ever been on an ICE train?? It's surely atleast as good as the IC3 trains IMO. And as I just wrote in my previous post, those old "bumletog" are actually still in use sometimes...When on them, it feels like they go so slow you could run faster next to the train. I doubt you'll find much worse trains than those on the German lines...

I took the ICE from Frankfurt to Cologne a few years ago, and even though it drove faster than 300 km/h, it felt like it was going through sope or something. Have never experienced a train ride as smooth as that.

Finally, the IC4 "a bit of a fiasco"? It's a HUGE fiasco. Not one single set is in regular operation yet. I still wonder why on earth they choose AnsaldoBreda, since there was a bunch of known issues with them earlier. It's the same situation in Belgium btw, they're also waiting for a bunch of new sets from AnsaldoBreda, also very much delayed.
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Old August 12th, 2007, 04:10 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by SmarterChild View Post
According to the site of the Swedish Railways 2-3 Oslo-Stockholm I.C. trains run daily.

Oslo-Cph runs with 1 xchange in Got.
That's not a lot really, services between similar sized cities elsewhere in Europe (Germany, France, UK, Italy, Benelux, Switzerland etc) would probably be every 60-120 minutes.
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Old August 12th, 2007, 05:37 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Mr_Denmark View Post
Here's the realtime train map of Denmark if anyone cares to see the WORST rail system in the univers!

http://lp.bane.dk/mapcafe/pass_tog.asp

( coloures indicate delays in minuttes )


And here's the S-Train network in Copenhagen
http://byenspuls.dsb.dk/byens_puls/ByensPuls.html
Hey! If that's all single track, there's just been half a dozen head-on collisions!
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Old August 12th, 2007, 07:55 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by mlm View Post
Have you ever been on an ICE train?? It's surely atleast as good as the IC3 trains IMO. And as I just wrote in my previous post, those old "bumletog" are actually still in use sometimes...When on them, it feels like they go so slow you could run faster next to the train. I doubt you'll find much worse trains than those on the German lines...

I took the ICE from Frankfurt to Cologne a few years ago, and even though it drove faster than 300 km/h, it felt like it was going through sope or something. Have never experienced a train ride as smooth as that.

Finally, the IC4 "a bit of a fiasco"? It's a HUGE fiasco. Not one single set is in regular operation yet. I still wonder why on earth they choose AnsaldoBreda, since there was a bunch of known issues with them earlier. It's the same situation in Belgium btw, they're also waiting for a bunch of new sets from AnsaldoBreda, also very much delayed.
The ICE trains are faster but not nearly as pleasant to ride on as IC trains in Denmark. The old regional trains are far worse than even the bumletog RE trains. They feel like they were made to be prison trains or cattle cars. The majority of the RE trains run fine- the bumletog is hardly ever used.
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Old August 12th, 2007, 08:14 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by milwaukee-københavn View Post
The ICE trains are faster but not nearly as pleasant to ride on as IC trains in Denmark. The old regional trains are far worse than even the bumletog RE trains. They feel like they were made to be prison trains or cattle cars. The majority of the RE trains run fine- the bumletog is hardly ever used.
Well that would be your opinions, and I can't say I agree on with any of them.
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Old August 13th, 2007, 01:53 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
That's not a lot really, services between similar sized cities elsewhere in Europe (Germany, France, UK, Italy, Benelux, Switzerland etc) would probably be every 60-120 minutes.
The train services between Gothenburg-Malmö-Köpenhamn run every 60 minutes between 06 and 19.

The trains to Oslo have been cut back in the last years becouse they have not really been suistanable anymore, for several reasons.
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Old August 13th, 2007, 02:47 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by DiggerD21 View Post
The current rail infrastructure should be/ remain nationalised. Train operating can be privatised IMO.
The problem is that it is not as easy to send a freighter (train) across Europe as it is with a lorry. There are some natural technical reasons for this, biggest obstacle are too broad/narrow tracks compared to the standard 1435 mm gauge (the latter being used in UK, whole Scandinavia except Finland, most of continental Europe except some small shortlines, Iberian peninsula and Russia/former Soviet states). Then there are different kinds of signals (though some sort of new signals are under way such as ERTMS which isn´t optical) and so on.

In my opinion, with techinal reasons aside national regulations are a major problem and probably the biggest in Europe. Even though they don´t ask for passports anymore, they still have to change staff from German DB to Austrian ÖBB on the German/Austrian border (at least, that happened when I went from Munich to Innsbruck)


Plus, because the railways are "national", this means that border crossings are often veeery slow due to lack of investment. "Why invest on the last stretch, our responsibility ends there!" or whatever the transport department think. This is especially so on the Danish-German border where the double track stretch in Denmark ends 10-20 km from the border and there are plenty of level crossings on the last stretch, and it´s the same between Graz and Maribor (Austria/Slovenia).
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Old August 13th, 2007, 10:49 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by mlm View Post
Well that would be your opinions, and I can't say I agree on with any of them.
Better compare german IC trains with the danish ICs. Here the danish ones are superior. Many german ICs don't have proper air condition, but instead you have to open the window, which means lots of noise coming into the wagon.

As for german regional trains: They have improved heavily. Especially on the lines not operated by the DB.
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Old August 14th, 2007, 04:47 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Mr_Denmark View Post
Nothing have happened?

The IR4 have taken over all the RE lines I've used the last 7 years.. except for the CPH-Kalundborg line that is operated by the Litra AB ( double decker )

Heck even the small streches in Northern Zealand is now covered by Modern Siemens trains ( Litra MQ )
IR4
The IR4 (above) only drives IR service on the electrified stretches on Zealand, and sometimes from Cph. - Odense - Fredericia. They still use the horrible old MR2 trains (see pictures below) in a large scale on the non-electrified stratches on Zealand, and in regular IR service on all main lines in Jutland. I have taken them directly from both Padborg to Århus, and from Århus to Frederikshavn a few years ago. They used them on all regional stretches in Jutland before Arriva took over in 2003.

I might add that they are very uncomfortable, noisy, shaky, and polluting - infact they suck monkey balls.



Arriva rented over 40 them from DSB when they took over, but have now replaced 29 of them with the much better Lint 41 to the right, which are much more comfortable. Arriva still uses 15 MR2 trains for rush hour traffic, but they have all been completely refurbished with brand new Arriva colors and new interior.
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Old August 15th, 2007, 08:02 PM   #92
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The only line on Sjælland that they use those on is the line from Næstved to Rosklide via Haslev and Køge. That line doesn't get very much ridership and the trains really aren't that bad. All of the other RE routes (electrified or not) on Sjælland use either the IR trains like Mr. Denmark pointed out or the rented double decker Bombardier cars. Lollandsbanen used the MR2 for a while but they have switched over to IR. As far as services in Jylland are concerned, I used to travel frequently between Århus and Aalborg and the only MR2 trains I ever saw were in RE service. Even still, they aren't always used on Grenå services or services to Struer or Esbjerg, which are all RE services run by DSB.
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Old August 16th, 2007, 08:55 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by milwaukee-københavn View Post
The Danish railways are almost 100% grade seperated unlike the fastest routes in Germany, so they don't get delayed by someone's cow or Volkswagen.
Its true that railways in Denmark are grade seperated (no railroad crossings) in a much higher extend than they are in Germany - especially the intercity lines. It was done in regards to safety, but its obviously a very expensive solution, so I guess the Germans just wanted to save money. I dont think that trains in Denmark are allowed to drive faster than 120 km/h through a railroad crossing, which I find to be absolute hysterical safety. It seems to work out very well in Germany where trains drive through railroad crossings at 200 km/h.
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And finally, DSB does not really need high speed service other than maybe on the routes that go to Hamburg and a Stockholm route (if there is one). I used to go visit my family up in Vendsyssel when I lived in Næstved (aka from one end of the country to the extreme other) and it took less than six hours. That usually included a self planned lunch break in Odense while I switched trains. If the worst you can do from one end of the country to the other is 5,5 hours, what is the point of building HSR?
It takes almost 6 hours to go directly from Frederikshavn to Copenhagen with the IC trains. It would most likely only take 3,5 hours if it were highspeed.
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Old August 17th, 2007, 12:14 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
Most of the new electrification in Denmark is for the S-tog services around Copenhagen, that has a different electric current than the main lines.
The decision to buy IC4 and IC2 as DMU's instead of EMU's was made because it was decided not to electrify more big routes.
You are correct, and its a strange decision when you consider the relative low cost of electrifying railroads. I would assume that electrification from Fredericia to Frederikshavn wouldn't cost more than a billion dkr. On the other hand, the new diesel technology have made diesel trains very environment friendly, and just as fast as electric trains.
Quote:
Now only the freight route from Germany to Sweden is electrified, DSB is now even selling off all of it's remaining electric loco's. They only had the 30 year old type EA electric loco's left, see here.
I wonder how much they want for their locomotives? Theres no price on them!

Last edited by Wallaroo; August 17th, 2007 at 12:21 AM.
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Old August 17th, 2007, 12:52 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by milwaukee-københavn View Post
DSB has continually invested in better trains than DB. The IC4 is a bit of a fiasco but all of the IC trains are still of a much better quality than anything found on DB lines. Most of the DB regional trains are awful, many are also very old. I would rather have better quality trains and have to wait longer to get them than just buy off the shelf.
I havent tried many different regional trains in Germany, but they all look good and most of them are build within the last 15 years. http://www.railfaneurope.net/list/ge...any_db_mu.html

They are most definitely not worse than the DSB MR2.
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Old August 17th, 2007, 11:13 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Wallaroo View Post
I dont think that trains in Denmark are allowed to drive faster than 120 km/h through a railroad crossing, which I find to be absolute hysterical safety. It seems to work out very well in Germany where trains drive through railroad crossings at 200 km/h.
A private car running at 40 km/h kills with a probablity of 80% any person it invest.

A train running at just 60 km/h would destroy everything.
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Old August 17th, 2007, 08:04 PM   #97
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Britain has the worst trains in Western Europe, expensive, slow and cramped. I blame Thatcher. That bitch.
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Old August 17th, 2007, 09:06 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Wallaroo View Post
I havent tried many different regional trains in Germany, but they all look good and most of them are build within the last 15 years. http://www.railfaneurope.net/list/ge...any_db_mu.html

They are most definitely not worse than the DSB MR2.
The thing about the German regional trains is that the new trains are more modern then the old ones but far less comfortable.
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Old August 17th, 2007, 09:31 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Britain has the worst trains in Western Europe, expensive, slow and cramped. I blame Thatcher. That bitch.
I have taken the train often in the uk and I had only one complaint: expensive. But it seems that you can buy your tickets cheaper in advance.
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Old August 17th, 2007, 11:36 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Wallaroo View Post
I havent tried many different regional trains in Germany, but they all look good and most of them are build within the last 15 years. http://www.railfaneurope.net/list/ge...any_db_mu.html

They are most definitely not worse than the DSB MR2.
Having lived near Haslev (where they use MR2 trains) for far too long and having visited NordRheinWestfalia, where there is probably the largest concentration of RE trains in Germany far too many times, I assure you that the MR2 is much nicer than all but the absolute newest German RE trains. The german trains are, as a general rule, not nearly as well cared for as DSB trains (aka you find trash, vomit, beer, etc in train cabins, often the next day). They are not nearly as comfortably appointed as DSB trains either (hard vinyl seats, dirty cabins, etc).

While I agree with the idea that the Danish railway system could be much better, I don't think it is anywhere near the worst in Europe. Yes, the track desperately needs to be replaced over much of the country, and electrification should be sped up. However, every DSB line that I know of, even lightly travelled ones, has at least hourly service, the system covers the entire country quite well, the stations and trains are all in good shape and either have been or are being replaced/remodeled, and the cost (for Denmark) of riding trains is not very high. All in all not a bad system.
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