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Old February 5th, 2009, 08:13 PM   #161
milwaukee-københavn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuvvaci View Post
wonderful thread...

I liked the trains also. keep posting new pics please.

Denmark's busiest rail line outside Roskilde /Wikipedia


An IC3 in DSB's old paint scheme in Aalborg /Wikipedia


Øresundstog by Adtranz based off the IC3 design. Øresunds trains are actually run by DSBFirst, which is a partnership between DSB and th First Group. They run between Sweden and Copenhagen/Helsingør every 10-20 min /jernbanen.dk


/jernbanen.dk


MR Regional trainset made by Uerginden in 1978 /jernbanen.dk


/jernbanen.dk


MR trainset made by Scandia in Denmark at Århus /jernbanen.dk
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Old February 7th, 2009, 11:15 PM   #162
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More DSB Photographs

Østerport Station in Copenhagen:

/Socialdemokratiet


/Wikipedia

Train-ferry across the Storbælt just before the bridge opened

/jernbanefoto.dk


/jernbanefoto.dk


/jernbanefoto.dk


/jernbanefoto.dk


/TV-2
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Old February 8th, 2009, 03:26 AM   #163
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This thread is awesome.

Brings back so many memories.
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Old February 8th, 2009, 08:01 AM   #164
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Is te railways the dominant transportation in Denmark?
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Old February 8th, 2009, 01:09 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuvvaci View Post
Is te railways the dominant transportation in Denmark?
According to the Department for Market Competition, the railways only have about a 6-8% market share in transport in Denmark, while public transport in total has a 25% market share. Cars have about a 75% market share.

There's a big difference, though, between car usage in Jylland away from major cities and on Sjælland near Copenhagen, where the biggest number of train journeys occur. In Copenhagen, only 1/3 of the inhabitants own a car.
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Old February 8th, 2009, 01:28 PM   #166
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Copenhagen-Ringsted Project

Because of bottlenecks in the main line between Copenhagen and Ringsted, the state is currently planning works to increase capacity between the cities.


/Trafikstyrelsen

There are two options currently being examined:

1. A fifth track between Hvidovre and Høje Taastrup in the Copenhagen Metro Area and a number of other track improvements around Roskilde and Ringsted.

2. A new double-tracked railway between Ny Ellebjerg in central Copenhagen and Ringsted via Køge. It would mainly follow two existing motorways and would involve the building of a new station at Køge. The new railway would maily serve freight and Inter City/ International trains, freeing up space on the existing railways for regional services.

More info & interactive map:
http://www.trm.dk/sw125276.asp

It's looking like the new railway soultion will be the one to happen because it would have the greatest impact on congestion and allow for new services to be implemented. It would also be able to be a part of the high-speed line to Germany, should it get built.

Railway lines on Sjælland:

/Banedanmark

The black and red striped line is the main line across Sjælland from Sweden to mainland Denmark.

The orange lines are the S-tog commuter railway and the white are the local railways. The rest are regional lines.


The line between Ringsted and Rødby Færge is where the new high-speed line to Germany will run if it gets built. The state is currently working on upgrading that line to 180 km/hour.
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Old February 8th, 2009, 02:08 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milwaukee-københavn View Post
According to the Department for Market Competition, the railways only have about a 6-8% market share in transport in Denmark, while public transport in total has a 25% market share. Cars have about a 75% market share.

There's a big difference, though, between car usage in Jylland away from major cities and on Sjælland near Copenhagen, where the biggest number of train journeys occur. In Copenhagen, only 1/3 of the inhabitants own a car.
how about the share of the public transportation? Wich one is the dominant? do you have intercity buses?
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Old February 8th, 2009, 08:54 PM   #168
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Just out of curiosity, Milwaukee, are you a Dane abroad or an American in Denmark? You almost make me remember an old George MacDonald Fraser novel (the Flashman Series) where a young British officer is sent undercover into Punjab armed only with the password "Wisconsin", to find that... his "Indian" undercover agent is a repatriated Presbyterian from Milwaukee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milwaukee-københavn
The electrification of all Danish main lines was actually approved in 1979, but with the purchase of the IC3 trains, the Danish government decided that there were few environmental benefits for electification. This January, the government decided to start electrification again- mainly because of problems with the IC4s- but first after the replacement of the entire signal system in 20 years.
You use the words "approved" and "agreed" a bit liberally, methinks. It was approved IN PRINCIPLE by parliament in 1979 but not as far as I know passed into a binding law. Later the Rigsrevisonen (the Supreme Auditor) forced the State only to electrify where a social rate of return of at least five (?) per cent (OK, I'm not sure about the number...) could be demonstrated. Reaching this threshold turned out to be very difficult - inter alia because the clinching factor should have been environmental gains but, seeing as the Danes burn coal to produce electricity, electrifying the trains to limit carbon emissions was a bit of a catch-22.

Recently, parliament has once again "agreed" to electrify the main network. Eventually. Well, we'll see...

Quote:
Originally Posted by milwaukee-københavn
The only section that may happen earlier (in 2018) over the new Femern Bridge project that will connect Denmark (on Lolland) and Germany. The line is also planned to be HSR.
Mmmmmwell, not formally. The HSL from Copenhagen to Ringsted via Koege is still - formally - not decided upon. From Ringsted to Vordingborg there will be an electrified and slightly upgraded line allowing speeds of 160 km/h. (It could, at a low cost, be pushed to 180-200 km/h but I was not aware of any concrete plans - are you?). From Vordingborg to Roedby the plans that are on the table speak of a German-style "Ausbau" of the existing single-track line which would become double and electrified, remain straight as a rod, and be capable of 200 km/h. Here, however, the operating company (Sund og Baelt) has entered a dissent - essentially arguing that if major construction works are needed then one should go for a Real-McCoy 250+ km/h HSL here as well. Of course, no one is in doubt that in the loooooong run what the government hopes for is an HSL Cophenhagen-Koege-Ringsted with a second leg Koege-Vordingborg. We'll see where that ends.

Last edited by hans280; February 8th, 2009 at 09:00 PM.
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Old February 9th, 2009, 04:24 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Just out of curiosity, Milwaukee, are you a Dane abroad or an American in Denmark? You almost make me remember an old George MacDonald Fraser novel (the Flashman Series) where a young British officer is sent undercover into Punjab armed only with the password "Wisconsin", to find that... his "Indian" undercover agent is a repatriated Presbyterian from Milwaukee.
I'm both American and Danish. Started using Skyscraper City when I lived in America, but have since moved back to Denmark.


Quote:
You use the words "approved" and "agreed" a bit liberally, methinks. It was approved IN PRINCIPLE by parliament in 1979 but not as far as I know passed into a binding law. Later the Rigsrevisonen (the Supreme Auditor) forced the State only to electrify where a social rate of return of at least five (?) per cent (OK, I'm not sure about the number...) could be demonstrated. Reaching this threshold turned out to be very difficult - inter alia because the clinching factor should have been environmental gains but, seeing as the Danes burn coal to produce electricity, electrifying the trains to limit carbon emissions was a bit of a catch-22.

Recently, parliament has once again "agreed" to electrify the main network. Eventually. Well, we'll see...
According to Folketingets Trafikudvalg, Parliament passed in law nr. 201 on 23rd of May 1979, that DSB's main passenger lines should be electrified with a 25.000 V 50 Hz system. That's why the Helsingør-Copenhagen-Frederecia-Padborg/Sønderborg lines are electrified. Because the IC3 could achieve the majority of the performance characteristics as electric trains, much of the incentive to electrify dissappeared when they were built. Despite this, both the new diesel trains and the electrification project continued simultaneously. The gov't decided to stop the electrification project in Odense in 1989 because it was deemed a bad investment to continue both projects at the same time. It was later finished to Padborg.

http://www.folketinget.dk/Samling/20...el_bilag80.htm

DSB report from '78 on electrification:
http://ing.dk/modules/fsArticle/download.php?fileid=89

As far as current plans, they're much more loose. From what the two most recent Transport Ministers have said, electrification plans are almost entirely dependent on how the IC4 project turns out and even then probably wouldn't happen until at least 2020 (when the new signal system comes into use).


Quote:
Mmmmmwell, not formally. The HSL from Copenhagen to Ringsted via Koege is still - formally - not decided upon. From Ringsted to Vordingborg there will be an electrified and slightly upgraded line allowing speeds of 160 km/h. (It could, at a low cost, be pushed to 180-200 km/h but I was not aware of any concrete plans - are you?). From Vordingborg to Roedby the plans that are on the table speak of a German-style "Ausbau" of the existing single-track line which would become double and electrified, remain straight as a rod, and be capable of 200 km/h. Here, however, the operating company (Sund og Baelt) has entered a dissent - essentially arguing that if major construction works are needed then one should go for a Real-McCoy 250+ km/h HSL here as well. Of course, no one is in doubt that in the loooooong run what the government hopes for is an HSL Cophenhagen-Koege-Ringsted with a second leg Koege-Vordingborg. We'll see where that ends.
There's been talk about upgrading it all the way to 180 km/h, but you're right, there are no concrete plans. DSB, however, refers to the improvements at 160-180 km/h on their website, not that that actually means anything.

http://www.dsb.dk/Om-DSB/Presse/Pres...-pa-skinnerne/
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Old February 11th, 2009, 08:52 AM   #170
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Until very recently I would have said the 180 km/h plans were pure poppycock. I mean, at speeds above 160 km/h they have to upgrade all the signalling equipment at a considerable cost. Who would do that for a gain of measly 20 km/h? But the government's new investment plan seems to foresee an upgrading of all equipment - even on crummy secondary lines - to ETRMS. If that becomes reality then, of course, my objection fades away.

A question: does anyone know where we stand with the unfortunate IC4 project? I know that AnsaldoBreda was given an ultimatum - deliver all equipment by May 2009 with part of it fully tested and approved, or we tear up the contract - and I followed it on the parliamentary website until December. Thereafter... total silence. My guess is the authorities don't want to pronounce themselves on the topic anymore so as not to prejudice possible future legal procedings with the company. Or....?
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Old February 16th, 2009, 08:20 PM   #171
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Here is a visualisation of the new Køge Nord Station that would be build if they build the Copenhagen - Køge - Ringsted Line.

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Old February 16th, 2009, 08:35 PM   #172
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Here are some pictures of the trains owned by the private rail companys,
Some of them are old and out of service but enjoy.























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Old March 3rd, 2009, 01:58 AM   #173
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We are still waiting for DSB IC4. What about the case, when Ansaldobreda not finish in the time?
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Old March 25th, 2009, 10:36 PM   #174
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And probably DSB have to make one step back.
This is the idea to use old, 30 years locomotives, most likely Litra ME....

http://epn.dk/brancher/transport/lan...cle1644034.ece
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Old March 26th, 2009, 04:47 PM   #175
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AnsaldoBreda plans on being able to give DSB 14 ready to run trainsets in May. If not, DSB will probably cancel the contract (which they've already paid for over half of). The 30 year old locomotives are a temporary solution. It hasn't been publicly announced what DSB will do instead in the long run because of the talks about finishing electrification which have been going on.

It's not necessarily a bad thing, imo, if the contract gets cancelled, as electrification is looking more and more likely and would be a better investment in the long run.
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Old March 28th, 2009, 02:20 AM   #176
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Will the new bridge connecting Germany and Denmark carry trains as well?
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Old March 28th, 2009, 05:51 PM   #177
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Quote:
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Will the new bridge connecting Germany and Denmark carry trains as well?
Yes.


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Old April 2nd, 2009, 04:11 PM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
here is a map of the network:
http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/...peninsulas.gif

and the danish rolling-stock:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/list/denmark.html#01

---

what I dont understand, is that denmark being so green (leader in wind energy etc), why is there only 1 main line electrified and at the same time diesel trains running at 200 kph?
this day and age, electrification is really cheap (200k eur / km approx), and it has huge advantages
First of all, the danish diesel trains on the main lines dont run at 200 km/h, but mostly 140 - 160 km/h. A very few places they go up to 180 km/h.

Secondly, DSB claims that it will cost in the area of 1 billion euros to electrify all danish intercity lines, which is why they choose not to do it. So they ordered 83 bullshit diesel trainsets from AnsaldoBreda back in 2000, and the list of faults in those trains would fill a phonebook - which is also why they are now 6 years delayed! I think only a handfull of them have been delivered so far.

I started a thread some time ago called: Denmark: Worst railway system in Western Europe, and I did it for a very god reason!!!

Last edited by Wallaroo; April 2nd, 2009 at 04:17 PM.
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Old April 2nd, 2009, 05:27 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallaroo View Post
Secondly, DSB claims that it will cost in the area of 1 billion euros to electrify all danish intercity lines, which is why they choose not to do it.
I agree that the underinvestment in Danish railway infrastructure these last 30+ years is shameful. Many Danes who have never been abroad (on more than a week's vacation, that is...) seem to think that we have a well functioning railway system. They are wrong. We have pretty much the same railway system as we did one generation ago. In the meantime other countries have upgraded theirs.

That said, I think you over simplify the problem with the electrification. Had it been only about investing 8 billion kroner in overhead wiring then it would have been done long ago. The problem is, the main lines around Lillebaelt and in eastern Jutland are from the 19th century and, as was customary in those days, "follow the landscape". In other words, they meander like serpentines. Hence, electrifying them alone doesn't give much additional speed. (And, in a country producing electricity by burning coal, isn't particularly environmental either.)

The whole electrification issue has therefore been held up for 15-20 years by a non-decision about whether to straighten out some of the railway stretches by investment in sub-sections of, particularly, the Eastern Jutland Line. The Danish parliament agreed to such a scheme in the nineties - then binned it because they'd rather spend the money on rolling stock. (Those wretched IC4 trains...) I seem to remember that one element of the old plan was a railway bridge across Vejle Fjord so that the direct trains Odense-Aarhus wouldn't have to zigzag first west, then east. Eminently sensible, if you ask me. No doubt that's why the politicians decided not to do it.
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Old April 2nd, 2009, 11:30 PM   #180
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It's easier said than done. If you look at the plans for the straightening of the main line in South-central Jylland, they all involve bypassing major cities of Fredericia an Vejle, almost 100 000 people in a country of 5 million. When you consider that railways in DK function largely for commuters, it doesn't make sense to build them like they're used differently.

I've travelled by train all over Europe, and I think we have a relatively well-functioning system. There are definently problems (capacity, some speed issues, outdated trains), but the system is not in the sort of shape where it requires the same major changes that have been made in France or Germany. A TGV or ICE doesn't make sense in DK. Traffic density is much too high to be able to achieve ICE speeds on the existing network, and there is't the room or political/environmental climate to build new TGV-esque corridors.

Worst train system in Western Europe? Look at France, where the majority of local service across the entire country has been discontinued to fund the TGVs. Or Spain, which until recently lacked any sort of decent national network. Or Britian, which has major safety issues and an on time record that makes DSB look wonderful. We have safe, frequent service to almost every corner of the country that (at least on the main lines) runs relatively fast, considering the amount of service provided.
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