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Old April 6th, 2010, 05:35 AM   #41
null
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Yes, ROC was to introduce its own set of simplified characters after their taking over:

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Old April 6th, 2010, 05:53 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrissib View Post
I wish it would be the other way round. China introduces the norml chinese chracters again and uses the transcription systems that were invented by free people and not the communists.

I'd like to read Chongnanshan-tunnel.
1. Taiwan's pinyin system (通用拼音) was based on the Wade-Giles system, a western invention that hardly reflects the actul sounds of the characters.

2. Taiwan had switched to PRC's Hanyu Pinyin (汉语拼音)on Jan 1, 2009

3. Simplified characters were not invented by the commies, they have been existing since the ancient times.


Last edited by null; April 6th, 2010 at 06:05 AM.
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Old April 6th, 2010, 03:18 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by null View Post
1. Taiwan's pinyin system (通用拼音) was based on the Wade-Giles system, a western invention that hardly reflects the actul sounds of the characters.
Not true actually.
In many cases in reflects the pronunciation much more accurately than Hanyu Pinyin (for most Westerners), e.g. cing instead of qing, sing instead of xing.
q & x and probably the most confusing for non-Chinese speakers.
Fong and Wong better represent the Mandarin pronunciation of e.g. 風 & 翁 used in Taiwan than Feng and Weng.
Ask a person who doesn't know how to read any pinyin to read xue and than to read syue.
Same with xiong vs. siong, or liu vs. liou.
You'll see which one is closer to the original pronunciation.

Having studied Chinese in Taiwan I must say that for people who had absolutely no idea about Chinese and its romanisation, TongYong was easier to read than Hanyu Pinyin.
Though in my opinion it doesn't really matter which one you use, 'cause they, after all, represent the same sounds and you need to learn how to pronounce it properly anyway.

Quote:
2. Taiwan had switched to PRC's Hanyu Pinyin (汉语拼音)on Jan 1, 2009
Officially yes, but it'll take a long time before it's widely used across the country. In August 2009 I saw some new street signs being installed in Southern Taiwan and they still used Tongyong Pinyin (or Wade-Giles, can't remember, but definitely not Hanyu Pinyin)
But it's true they should only use one system, and since more than 90% of Chinese speakers use Hanyu pinyin, in Taiwan they should use the same imho.

Quote:
3. Simplified characters were not invented by the commies, they have been existing since the ancient times.
Yes, they were.
The ones you showed are exceptions. Most of them were invented by the commies and unfortunately those are the most ridiculously simplified ones.
Those based on former cursive forms, like the ones on the chart you posted, make more sense.
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Old April 6th, 2010, 03:52 PM   #44
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In many cases in reflects the pronunciation much more accurately than Hanyu Pinyin (for most Westerners)
Of couse, it's a western invention.

The actual sounds? No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post


Yes, they were.
The ones you showed are exceptions. Most of them were invented by the commies and unfortunately those are the most ridiculously simplified ones.
Those based on former cursive forms, like the ones on the chart you posted, make more sense.
No, they weren't.

Since you're an expert, I'll post this in Chinese.

简体字是汉字演变的逻辑结果。汉字从甲骨文、金文变为篆书,再变为隶书、楷书,其总趋势就是从繁到简。隶书是篆书的简化,草书、行书又是隶书的简化,而简体字正是楷书的简化。楷书在魏晋时开始出现,而简体字已见于南北朝(4-6世纪)的碑刻,到隋唐时代简化字逐渐增多,在民间相当普遍,被称为“俗体字”。我们今天使用的许多简化字,在这时候就已经开始出现,例如“营”、“寿”、“尽”、“敌”、“继”、“烛”、“壮”、“齐”、“渊”、“娄”、顾”、“献”、“变”、“灯”、“坟”、“驴”,等等。唐代颜元孙著《干禄字书》和王仁[日句]著《刊谬补缺切韵》,都收了极多的俗体字。宋代以后,随着印刷术的发明,简体字由碑刻和手写转到雕版印刷的书籍上,从而扩大了简体字的流行范围,数量大大增多。根据《宋元以来俗字谱》,宋元明清12种民间刻本中所用的简体字多达6240个,合为繁体字共1604个,平均每个繁体字有3.9个不同的简化字,与今天使用的简体字完全相同的有“实”、“宝”、“听”、“万”、“礼”、“旧”、“与”、“庄”、“梦”、“虽”、“医”、“阳”、“凤”、“声”、“义”、“乱”、“台”、“党”、“归”、“办”、“辞”、“断”、“罗”、“会”、“怜”、“怀”等等共达330多个。

Qing:

1909年,陆费逵在《教育杂志》创刊号上发表论文《普通教育应当采用俗体字》,这是历史上第一次公开提倡使用简体字。

ROC:

1922年,陆费逵又发表论文《整理汉字的意见》,建议采用已在民间流行的简体字,并把其他笔画多的字也简化。

1922年,钱玄同在国语统一筹备委员会上提出《减省现行汉字的笔画案》,得到陆基、黎锦熙、杨树达的联署。这是历史上有关简体字的第一个具体方案,主张把过去只在民间流行的简体字作为正体字应用于一切正规的书面语。它提出的八种简化汉字的方法,实际上也就是现行简体字的产生依据,影响深远。

1928年,胡怀琛出版《简易字说》,收简体字300多个。

1930年,中央研究院历史语言研究所出版刘复、李家瑞合编的《宋元以来俗字表》,反映了一千年来简体字的发展情况。

1932年,国民政府教育部公布出版国语筹备委员会编订的《国音常用字汇》,收入不少简体字,并指出:“现在应该把它(简体字)推行,使书写处于约易。”

1934年,中国图书馆服务社出版杜定友的《简字标准字表》,收简体字353个。徐则敏在《论语半月刊》发表《550俗字表》。钱玄同在国语统一筹备委员会提出《搜集固有而较适用的简体字案》。

1935年,钱玄同主持编成《简体字谱》草稿,收简体字2400多个。同年8月,国民党政府教育部采用这份草稿的一部分,公布“第一批简体字表”,收字324个,虽然在第二年的2月又通令收回,但毕竟是历史上由政府公布的第一个简体字表。也就是在这一年,上海文化界组织“手头字推行会”,发起推行“手头字(即简体字)”运动。

1936年10月,容庚的《简体字典》出版,收字达4445,基本上本自草书。同年11月,陈光尧出版《常用简字表》,收字3150个,约一半本自草书,一半来自俗体字。

1937年,北平研究所字体研究会发表《简体字表》第一表,收字1700个。

PRC:

抗日战争爆发,简体字运动才被迫停顿,而主要在共产党统治区继续发展。共产党取得政权后,立即着手继续推行简化汉字。



1950年,中央人民政府教育部社会教育司编制《常用简体字登记表》。

1951年,在上表的基础上,根据“述而不作”的原则,拟出《第一批简体字表》,收字555个。

1952年2月5日,中国文字改革研究委员会成立。

1954年底,文改委在《第一批简体字表》的基础上,拟出《汉字简化方案〔草案〕》,收字798个,简化偏旁56个,并废除400个异体字。

1955年2月2日,《汉字简化方案〔草案〕》发表,把其中的261个字分3批在全国50多种报刊上试用。同年7月13日,国务院成立汉字简化方案审订委员会。同年10月,举行全国文字改革会议,讨论通过《汉字简化方案〔修正草案〕》,收字减少为515个,简化偏旁减少为54个。

1956年1月28日,《汉字简化方案》经汉字简化方案审订委员会审订,由国务院全体会议第23次会议通过,31日在《人民日报》正式公布,在全国推行。以后这个方案根据使用情况而略有改变,1964年5月,文改委出版了《简化字总表》,共分三表:第一表是352个不作偏旁用的简化字,第二表是132个可作偏旁用的简化字和14个简化偏旁,第三表是经过偏旁类推而成的1754个简化字;共2238字(因“签”、“须”两字重见,实际为2236字),这就是今天中国大陆的用字标准。

summary:

1. It's ture that simplified characters have been existing since the ancient times.

2. ROC wanted to formalise the simplified characters but they lost the war.

3. Mostly, there would be more simplified characters if the KMT was the winner.

4. PRC resumed the unfinished job and they eventually succeeded.

Last edited by null; April 6th, 2010 at 03:59 PM.
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Old April 6th, 2010, 04:10 PM   #45
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That's some really useful information about the freeways of Taiwan, guys! Thanks!
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Old April 6th, 2010, 04:41 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SungIEman View Post


That has got to be the most common scenery all over east asian coastal cities. The east asian-ness just simply... pops out and hits you square in the face. There's the mountan range, there's the ocean, there's the abundant greenery, and then there's the city with tons of man-made land reclamation structures, and oh look...! There's the camera man hiding behind the bushes on top of a hill snapping pictures of us! *puts up the peace/victory sign*

I swear... east asian has got to be one of the most generic people ever. (I don't care if i'll get owned for saying this... because I'm asian... *puts up the victory sign*)

whipped out a few pictures just to prove my point.

Japan


Korea


And for those who are not familiar with asian culture, here's an example of victory/peace sign

lol, isn't that the truth. I always wondered why that is. you always see Asians here, with a big camera walking around taking pictures, throwing a peace sign while being completely oblivious to their surroundings, and how funny they look.


either way, I like Taiwan's highways. great scenery.
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Old April 6th, 2010, 06:36 PM   #47
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@null

You right about who invented the new forms, I took for granted that 汉字简化方案 announced by the new, communist government was made excursively by them. I admit that using the word "commies" about those who simplified the characters was not the best term. My bad.

As for pinyin, Hanyu pinyin is not in any way better than Tongyong. It's just different. It's not more accurate when it come to pronunciation either. If you know how to pronounce the syllables, they're both ok. If you don't then it doesn't matter which one is used.
The pronunciation of Chungkuo and Zhongguo is exactly the same. The great thing about the latin alphabet is that its letters can be pronounce differently.

Quote:
3. Mostly, there would be more simplified characters if the KMT was the winner.
If the Chinese government had finished the second round of simplification in 1977 as they planned, it would be much worse now.
Quote:
4. PRC resumed the unfinished job and they eventually succeeded.
Yeah, they succeeded in implementing the reform, but was it a success? That's arguable

P.S.
我并不是专家,只是个对中文感兴趣的人。
虽然简体字我大部分都看得懂,可是还需要用简体/繁体互转工具。。。
要是你想继续讨论下去,可以寄个PM给我吧。

BUT!
Enough of the linguistic discussion.

Does anyone know when do they plan to extend the Chiang Wei-shui Express-way (No. 5)? It certainly does get horribly congested on public holidays. Especially in Su-ao at the entrance.
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Old April 6th, 2010, 11:21 PM   #48
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I'm learning (spoken) Mandarin and Pinyin Romanization is the most intuitive for me (then again, I'm not that familiar with the other ones) - also, I hate that both in PRC and Taiwan the tones are not always marked (not even on highway signs, it seems). They would have been helpful, since I hear that people don't always understand what you are trying to say with wrong intonation. And in case of an accident you don't quite have time to talk about pronunciation.
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Old April 7th, 2010, 01:40 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Does anyone know when do they plan to extend the Chiang Wei-shui Express-way (No. 5)? It certainly does get horribly congested on public holidays. Especially in Su-ao at the entrance.
info from today's China Post

Suhua Highway project to be completed in '16

TAIPEI, Taiwan -- The Executive Yuan (Cabinet) approved yesterday a proposal from the Ministry of Transportation and Communications (MOTC) of improvements to the Suhua (Suao-Hualien) Highway for enhanced safety and shorter traveling time.

According to the plan, the existing 77-kilometer highway meandering on the eastern coast will be shortened to 60.3 km by building two new tunnels, said officials at the Directorate General of Highways (DGH) under the MOTC.

The route of the highway on the edge of the Pacific will be partially revised to avoid the sections constantly plagued by mudslides and falling rocks.

It will take 72 minutes for motorists to travel through the route, compared with an average of the current 120 minutes, when the project is completed in 2016 with a budget of more than NT$40 billion, said the officials.

An evaluation of the environmental impact of the highway improvement project will be conducted by the Environmental Protection Administration (EPA) before mid-September.

Construction contracts will be farmed out late this or early next year.

The Suhua Highway improvement project was worked out by the MOTC to improve the transport service and safety on the east coast after the controversial Suhua freeway project was scrapped due to strong opposition from environmentalist groups and some tourist industry leaders.

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/n...ua-Highway.htm
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Old April 26th, 2010, 06:26 AM   #50
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Landslide blocked highway in Taiwan

Taiwan Highway Number 3 from Keelung (the northern tip of Taiwan) to Taipei was completely blocked at 3.1KM due to a powerful landslide on Sunday afternoon. It is reported that 3 to 5 cars were buried.

All pictures were shot by the Taiwan Air Police:

Before the landslide:


After:









Rescue work is currently going on. Soldiers were sent to help the job.




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Old April 26th, 2010, 09:31 PM   #51
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Holy shit!! I've never seen anything like that before! Guess there is no chance for people in the cars to survive...
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Old April 27th, 2010, 01:50 AM   #52
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Prey and hope that everything is well over there.

BTW - Let's all use Phonetic Symbols, aka bopomofo, aka Zhuyin Fuhao to clear all the confusions of pinyin(s)
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Old April 27th, 2010, 04:05 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Holy shit!! I've never seen anything like that before!
What about this?

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Old October 8th, 2010, 05:29 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cold View Post
no is not..English is not consider an international language(There are no such thing as international language). I believe Japaneses visited Taiwan more than English speaking countries.

Ever been to France or Germany? NO English sign like Taiwan or most Asian country. More English speaking people visited Germany and France than Taiwan.
I just couldn't stand your argument anymore. We have English characters accompanying the Thai ones too, so that foreigners (from any countries) could understand and know where they are or are heading to. I believe only Japanese and Chinese (of course) people understand Chinese characters. And only Thais (and perhaps Laotians) can read Thai.

On the other hand, many people in the world from many countries can 'read' English characters, which are quite similar to German, French, whatsoever. So you guys, Europeans, do not need to translate your languages to English as many people can 'read' your language just to know where they are/are heading to.
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Old October 8th, 2010, 05:56 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreicherisch View Post
On the other hand, many people in the world from many countries can 'read' English characters, which are quite similar to German, French, whatsoever. So you guys, Europeans, do not need to translate your languages to English as many people can 'read' your language just to know where they are/are heading to.
The point is they are not translated into English, but into Latin script with pronunciation based on English, which makes it readable by many people who can't speak English.
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Old October 8th, 2010, 12:27 PM   #56
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The point is they are not translated into English, but into Latin script with pronunciation based on English, which makes it readable by many people who can't speak English.
I knew that but I used "English" coz I don't know what I should call them, who's the origin of the characters.. I believe it's Roman.
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Old October 8th, 2010, 02:59 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badguy2000 View Post
well, I am sure that the title should be taken by mainland China long ago..

the current longest tunnel in the world should be Zhongnanshan tunnel,18.2 KM long in mainland China.



[/QUOTE]
I do need to point out that the Zhongnanshan tunnel is the longest in Asia, NOT the world. The Laerdal Tunnel in Norway, currently holds the record for being the longest tunnel in the world at 25.5 km.
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Old October 8th, 2010, 03:10 PM   #58
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The Hsuehshan Tunnel is the second longest 2x2 tunnel in the world.
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Old November 15th, 2011, 11:28 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The Hsuehshan Tunnel is the second longest 2x2 tunnel in the world.
Regarding "Snow Mountain tunnel":

Haha, two years ago, they just announced a max. speed limit increase to 90 km/h with 10 km/h tolerance (originally the max speed limit was 70 km/h). This was as of November 2010.

Who knows, maybe there might be another speed limit increase in the future....

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Old August 28th, 2012, 08:26 PM   #60
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Updated Monday, April 30, 2012 0:06 am TWN
CNA
Taichung's Lishan residents face long road home

TAIPEI--Since the 921 earthquake destroyed the Central Cross-island Highway 13 years ago, Taichung's Lishan residents and students have been unfairly forced to take the long road home, said Lishan borough chief Chen Cheng-fu on Saturday.

It is a five hour drive from Lishan to Taichung City, said Chen at a press conference held by ruling Kuomintang (KMT) legislator Chiang Chi-chen.

The 190-km cross-island highway, which connects Taichung City in the west and Hualien Country in the east, has been under reconstruction after it was almost totally destroyed in the quake, and a temporary road is opened to restricted traffic each day.

The road was closed for three days and only reopened on Saturday because heavy rain had destabilized rocks on surrounding slopes, said Hung Fan-yi, the head of the Guguan segment of the highway's reconstruction unit under the Directorate General of Highways

Chen urged the government to guarantee the safety of the trail and increase the number of hours that the temporary road is open.

“Not a single road on the mountain is free from falling rocks,” said Chen. “I really wish my friends in Taichung could visit me sometime.”

Usually, it is only an 81-kilometer drive along the Central Cross-island Highway from Lishan to Taichung City, but with the highway still under repair, Lishan residents have to travel double that distance (169 km), passing through Nantou County's Hehuan Mountain, said Chiang.

Additionally, there are no high schools in the Lishan mountain region, so students are sent to study in Taichung City, but often need to take a very long trip to return home on weekends, Chiang added.

Taichung City Councilor Su Ching-yun also pointed out that it was unreasonable for Taichung City residents to have to travel through Nantou County to enter the city, and asked the government to reopen the highway to all Taichung residents as soon as possible.

The temporary road was available only for the residents of Fengyuan, Dongshi, Shigang, Xinshe and Heping districts, who are working in Lishan.

In response, Hung said some segments of the highway are surrounded by steep slopes and cliffs, and heavy rain causes rock-falls.

Road blockages caused by such fallen rocks could pose significant safety concerns, Hung added.

Highway reconstruction, that was scheduled to be completed at the end of April, has now been postponed to May.
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