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Old January 5th, 2014, 08:52 PM   #21
Sunfuns
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Do they actually build passenger trains in Canada? I've only heard of factories in Europe...
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Old January 5th, 2014, 09:18 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
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That said, it would take a lot of political will to get HSR approved in Canada. Extending the line to Windsor in the west and Quebec City in the east is likely imperative.
Why do you say that? It seems to me that the extra length adds a huge amount of extra cost without having nearly as big an impact on ridership. Wouldn't the diminished numbers make it less palatable politically?
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Old January 5th, 2014, 09:19 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Robi_damian View Post
To me it makes perfect sense to build it: flat terrain, large and wealthy population, heck the Canadian corridor is a perfect candidate for HSR by any book. It would cost a lot, sure, but it would greatly ease travel on the corridor.
compared to other North American HSR projects, Toronto-Montreal would actually probably be quite cheap, probably $10-$15 billion for 600km of service. the corridor is largely built out, and few realignments would really need to be made as the corridor is typically very, very straight. you would probably need one major bypass of Smith Falls, and a couple of smaller realignments of tight curves, but probably around 97% of the route already has a ROW. all you would need is more tracks and electrification really. the Quebec city and Windsor extensions would probably be a bit more expensive, Quebec city would probably require a new tunnel under Mount Royal in Montreal, and Windsor tracks are in much worse condition than Toronto-Montreal and would need some major upgrading in Guelph.

assuming average speed of 300km/h it would be a 2 hour trip to Montreal, and about an Hour and a half to Ottawa from Toronto. now achieving that average speed is unlikely, 2 hours to Ottawa and 2.5 hours to Montreal is probably more realistic. Today the fastest VIA trains make the trip to Ottawa in around 4 hours for comparison. to make a major improvement on that you could simply stop having the trains slow down to 60km/h through towns, they otherwise travel at 150km/h for the entire stretch other than in Smith Falls and approaching the Ottawa station where the trains slow to a crawl. (the Smith Falls one is because it has to travel through a yard, don't know why the trains slow down in Ottawa)

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Old January 5th, 2014, 09:21 PM   #24
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For a well built line in easy terrain 230-240 km/h average would be a good target.
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Old January 6th, 2014, 06:03 AM   #25
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I think the money would be better spent getting better Intra-city service. Imagine if that cash was pumped into AMT, GO and the O-train.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 03:42 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Do they actually build passenger trains in Canada? I've only heard of factories in Europe...
There is one factory in Quebec and one in Thunder Bay, Ontario.
Though they are going to need some modifications to build HSR stock.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 05:33 AM   #27
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Unfortunately its hard to see any HSR happening between Toronto and Montreal in the next decade. Aside from the cost of buildng HSR, there are established interests ie the airlines and bus companies, as well as competing demands, and the govt is not flush with money.

It probably makes more sense to improve and dedicate one of the existing ROW (CN or CP lines) between Toronto and Mtl for passenger traffic, and to use the other for freight, and to double track both routes to allow for faster trains.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 07:01 AM   #28
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Maybe spend some of that tar sand money on one HSL.
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Old January 17th, 2014, 05:19 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Why do you say that? It seems to me that the extra length adds a huge amount of extra cost without having nearly as big an impact on ridership. Wouldn't the diminished numbers make it less palatable politically?
Increasing coverage will garner more support. Then the opposition would cite the issue of the high total cost of the project. That's when the DRAMA happens.
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Old January 17th, 2014, 06:03 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Cat View Post
Unfortunately its hard to see any HSR happening between Toronto and Montreal in the next decade. Aside from the cost of buildng HSR, there are established interests ie the airlines and bus companies, as well as competing demands, and the govt is not flush with money.

It probably makes more sense to improve and dedicate one of the existing ROW (CN or CP lines) between Toronto and Mtl for passenger traffic, and to use the other for freight, and to double track both routes to allow for faster trains.

VIA uses almost exclusively CN tracks, as it is the long ago replacement of CNs passenger service. The tracks are already double tracked the entire way, and even triple tracked for large portions of distance. Most of the "simple improvements" like you describe were done a couple of years ago. $1 billion was sunk into VIA for train rebuilds, some new stations, new passing tracks, etc. I believe VIA use is actually going up for the first time in decades as a result.



No idea on the Quebec plant, but the Thunder Bay plant largely acts as a supply line for Toronto's constant need for new trains (there has been a new or expanded order every year or two for the last decade). They are currently building streetcars, subway trains, LRT trains, as well as GO commuter trains. I don't think VIA has even purchased new passenger trains since the 1990's.
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 06:12 AM   #31
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Thought this was interesting. When discussing the Kitchener AD2W project here Glen Murray, Ontario's Transportation minister, states that they would like to see the trains run at "a couple hundred kilometers an hour". could this be the closest thing Canada will get to HSR? it would certainly be the first time trains travel at over 200km/h.

Quote:
"we've then got to upgrade that track so if you want higher speed trains we've got to put concrete ties, we've got to upgrade the quality of the rail because eventually we don’t want sixty mile [an hour trains]."

"We need trains that are running a couple hundred kilometres an hour, that’s our goal with regional rail, so you’re talking about the kinds of rapid rail systems that you see in that."
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 06:39 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
Thought this was interesting. When discussing the Kitchener AD2W project here Glen Murray, Ontario's Transportation minister, states that they would like to see the trains run at "a couple hundred kilometers an hour". could this be the closest thing Canada will get to HSR? it would certainly be the first time trains travel at over 200km/h.
Well, 200km/h is close to 125mph, which also happens to be the prevalent limit for "higher speed rail" using diesel propulsion (see HST in GB). Other than true high speed rail, which is electrified lines with over 145~150mph service, this seems to be the most realistic scenario in the North American context.
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 06:49 AM   #33
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There is talk of electrifying it as well BTW, though nothing definitive. Half of the line is getting electrified already for the new airport connection.

in general the article is very vague, and the whole thing seems very preliminary. I'm just excited as this is the first serious mention of regional rail I have seen in Canada, well, ever. The trains could be 250km/h, they could stick to the current 150km/h / 90mph limits that they are currently set to. We don't really know. At least its being talked about.
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 08:26 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Do they actually build passenger trains in Canada? I've only heard of factories in Europe...
Bombardier manufactured passenger trains in Quebec then purchased a rival manufacturer in Ontario (UTDC). They used this enlarged rail division as a spring board to acquire manufacturers in Europe, but have always continued to run passenger rail manufacturing operations in both Quebec and Ontario. Europeans tend to view Bombardier's rail division as a uniquely European operation, but it's not at all.

Toronto's new subway cars are made in Thunder Bay, Ontario at the UTDC factory. As rail expenditures grow in America (north and south), Bombardier's Canadian rail operations might one day rival it's European rail operations in size and importance.
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 08:38 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Why do you say that? It seems to me that the extra length adds a huge amount of extra cost without having nearly as big an impact on ridership. Wouldn't the diminished numbers make it less palatable politically?
We're only talking about an extra 250 km of track to reach QC with close to 800,000 people not to mention 1.3 million within an hours drive of that city. There would be huge political pressure from the government of Quebec to extend the line to the provincial capital.

At the other end, extending past Toronto to Windsor is a huge added cost due to its length. There are 2 factors that make it worthwhile. The region between Toronto and Windsor is heavily populated: Hamilton (800,000), Kitchener-Waterloo-Guelph (650,000), London (500,000), and finally Windsor (350,000). Then there's the added benefit of connecting the entire line to the US. Detroit (5 million) is just across the border from Windsor. By extending to Windsor, you're effectively connecting the line to the entire US HSR system.
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Old April 14th, 2014, 10:49 PM   #36
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HSR of some sort was announced between Toronto, Kitchener, and London today. That is a 170km stretch. Small, but a great start to what is hopefully a much larger expansion. I'm sure the service will be hugely popular.
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Old April 15th, 2014, 01:47 AM   #37
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Is there a source for that info?
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Old April 15th, 2014, 01:55 AM   #38
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http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspa...tim_hudak.html

http://www.movingontarioforward.ca/

Still very, very vague, but its there.
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Old April 18th, 2014, 07:22 AM   #39
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320 kph HSR from Toronto to London?

https://twitter.com/Glen4ONT/statuse...88267872010241
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Old April 18th, 2014, 03:15 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
We're only talking about an extra 250 km of track to reach QC with close to 800,000 people not to mention 1.3 million within an hours drive of that city. There would be huge political pressure from the government of Quebec to extend the line to the provincial capital.

At the other end, extending past Toronto to Windsor is a huge added cost due to its length. There are 2 factors that make it worthwhile. The region between Toronto and Windsor is heavily populated: Hamilton (800,000), Kitchener-Waterloo-Guelph (650,000), London (500,000), and finally Windsor (350,000). Then there's the added benefit of connecting the entire line to the US. Detroit (5 million) is just across the border from Windsor. By extending to Windsor, you're effectively connecting the line to the entire US HSR system.
Toronto to Windsor is 350 km so not much further than Montreal/QC. Plus Southern Ontario has a heck of a lot more people than the 800k in QC.
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