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Old September 3rd, 2012, 10:48 AM   #1981
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Switzerland is a transit land and the real problem is that there is too much traffic at all,especialy far too many trucks transporting crap that easily colud be transportated by rail.the problem is not,or its just a part of the problem,to build new and better roads but to get the traffic of the road and use other ways of transport.many truck transport are completely usless anyway.how many trucks you have to send to transport 1.000 new cars,all that fits on one ship for example
Load of media blabla. There is hardly any truck traffic through the Alps. Traffic congestion in Switzerland is not caused by truck traffic, especially not at the transit routes through the Alps. The amount of truck traffic through the Alps is wildly exaggerated, there are only some 2.400 trucks per day, which is very low for a major corridor. Hence, moving freight from truck to rail is not going to do anything to reduce congestion at the Gotthard Tunnel.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 10:52 AM   #1982
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Brenner is the most important transit route for freight through the Alps. That RoRo train link relieves the Brenner autobahn and approach a little.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 11:03 AM   #1983
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Freight traffic on the Brenner Route increased notably after Switzerland introduced the LSVA (truck tolls). The Swiss tolls are about double that of the Austrian tolls, and I've read that empty foreign truck still have to pay the full amount (40 tons).
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 11:16 AM   #1984
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I think that those 4 alternatives should be improved instead of limiting them!
That's exactly what's being done. The Gotthard Base Tunnel, the longest tunnel in the world, is being entirely financed by Switzerland to cater the demand for transit transport between north and italy. Unsurprisignly though, Europe won't be able to take full advantage of it on time because both Germany and mostly Italy are not even building the necessary rail connections which are a very very small fraction the cost of the Swiss tunnel. If Switzerland expects this commitement by the most interested countries why should it build anything more?

The limit on capacity applies only to road traffic.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 11:24 AM   #1985
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Switzerland against the world
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 11:47 AM   #1986
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Such connections already exist, and at the moment they are constructing another railroad tunnel through the Brenner. A RoRo train for trucks operates between Wörgl and Trento.
These shuttles are losing traffic because the EU didn't like the limits on transit trucks imposed by Austria. Note that these limit didn't impede freight transport, as they simply obliged some trucks to use these subsidized train shuttles at not much higher cost.

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Load of media blabla. There is hardly any truck traffic through the Alps. Traffic congestion in Switzerland is not caused by truck traffic, especially not at the transit routes through the Alps. The amount of truck traffic through the Alps is wildly exaggerated, there are only some 2.400 trucks per day, which is very low for a major corridor. Hence, moving freight from truck to rail is not going to do anything to reduce congestion at the Gotthard Tunnel.
On the Gotthard they are around 950.000 a year, together with the other Swiss corridors they are 1.300.00, which equals to around respectively 3.200 and 4.300 a day (at least half of them doing long distance trips - like Netherlands-Italy).

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That's exactly what's being done. The Gotthard Base Tunnel, the longest tunnel in the world, is being entirely financed by Switzerland to cater the demand for transit transport between north and italy. Unsurprisignly though, Europe won't be able to take full advantage of it on time because both Germany and mostly Italy are not even building the necessary rail connections which are a very very small fraction the cost of the Swiss tunnel. If Switzerland expects this commitement by the most interested countries why should it build anything more?

The limit on capacity applies only to road traffic.
What is needed in Italy (at least to reach intermodal yards) is around 25 km of single track tunnels, adding a second track on a few railways on flatland and increase clearance of some short tunnels - compared to 200 km of single track tunnels bored by Switzerland.

Note that in Italy there are existing or planned railways that costed a lot but carry a fraction of the rail traffic expected or realistically predictable on the two AlpTransit lines (Gotthard and Simplon-Lötschberg).
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 12:39 PM   #1987
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Originally Posted by Zagor666 View Post
You forgot the Lötschberg-Simplon combination.Switzerland is a transit land and the real problem is that there is too much traffic at all,especialy far too many trucks transporting crap that easily colud be transportated by rail.the problem is not,or its just a part of the problem,to build new and better roads but to get the traffic of the road and use other ways of transport.many truck transport are completely usless anyway.how many trucks you have to send to transport 1.000 new cars,all that fits on one ship for example
I didn't forget the Lötschberg as I was considering only infrastructure that permit you to be indipendent without taking care about a schedule.

Then, what about freight: have you ever herad about HUPAC? It's the European largest intermodal hub in Europe and it's located in my town, Busto Arsizio, that's only 40km far from the Swiss border and right on the line coming from Geneva heading to Milan. Rail freight arrives here and then trucks pick up containers to the rest of Italy!

And my dream is to have a high quality rail line that will easily connect the Province of Varese to Ticino. We already have it but it runs from Milan to Como/Chiasso and it's good for people transportation but not for freight.

I think freight rail transport should be improved!
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 01:01 PM   #1988
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That's exactly what's being done. The Gotthard Base Tunnel, the longest tunnel in the world, is being entirely financed by Switzerland to cater the demand for transit transport between north and italy. Unsurprisignly though, Europe won't be able to take full advantage of it on time because both Germany and mostly Italy are not even building the necessary rail connections which are a very very small fraction the cost of the Swiss tunnel. If Switzerland expects this commitement by the most interested countries why should it build anything more?

The limit on capacity applies only to road traffic.
It's allright but in this world there is not only freight but also cars.

And limiting road traffic means that travelling through Switzerland will be less fluid than before.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 08:00 PM   #1989
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I didn't forget the Lötschberg as I was considering only infrastructure that permit you to be indipendent without taking care about a schedule.
The Lötschberg shuttle (like the others) is considered like a road here.

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Then, what about freight: have you ever herad about HUPAC? It's the European largest intermodal hub in Europe and it's located in my town, Busto Arsizio, that's only 40km far from the Swiss border and right on the line coming from Geneva heading to Milan. Rail freight arrives here and then trucks pick up containers to the rest of Italy!
A semitrailer-only service between a terminal around Milano and others at least in the Rhein-Ruhr and Randstad areas - what a nice idea...it might also be possible without subsidies.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 08:08 PM   #1990
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That will please the lorry drivers, whose margins are tight enough as it is...
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 10:25 PM   #1991
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You know that the Alps are a wound/fracture right in the heart of Europe, you don't?

According to Google Maps there are only 4 possible roads to pass through the (Swiss) Alps:

• Great Saint Bernard Tunnel between Vallée D'Aoste (I) and Canton Valais (CH)
• Gotthard Tunnel between Ticino and Uri
• San Bernardino Tunnel within Graubünden
• Hauptstraße 27 within Graubünden

I think that those 4 alternatives should be improved instead of limiting them!
There is also Simplon pass and Bernina pass. Anyway if you want to go somewhere other than Switzerland itself then going through here is not a must. You could as easily go via Brenner pass or avoid alps altogether by taking a coastal highway from Genova to Marseille and then North through France.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 10:29 PM   #1992
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I wonder if it would be technically feasible to keep the Gotthard pass open in winter while the road tunnel is being renovated. Sure there is a lot of snow and it wouldn't be cheap, but surely much less costly than boring another tunnel.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 10:33 PM   #1993
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I wonder if it would be technically feasible to keep the Gotthard pass open in winter while the road tunnel is being renovated. Sure there is a lot of snow and it wouldn't be cheap, but surely much less costly than boring another tunnel.
Many road passes were kept open year-round as much as possible with year-round snow removal. That costs a lot, though, and don't solve the problem of occasional 4-5 day snow spells that would shut down the route altogether causing immense problems.

Moreover, the road pass is not that fit for truck traffic.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 10:35 PM   #1994
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Moreover, the road pass is not that fit for truck traffic.
That's not a problem - just forbid it for three years.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 10:39 PM   #1995
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That's not a problem - just forbid it for three years.
Exactly! First of all there are alternative roads (Simplon and St Bernard) and second this won't happen before the commission of Gotthard base tunnel so there will be option to use a car shuttle as well. It will be inconvenient for sure, but that's kind of inevitable anyway.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 10:42 PM   #1996
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The Lötschberg shuttle (like the others) is considered like a road here.
A very expensive road though. It's cheaper to go around via Montreux.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 10:54 PM   #1997
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A very expensive road though. It's cheaper to go around via Montreux.
This takes too long I dont know what´s the problem of using a shuttletrain or a ferry,its a part of travelling and much more relaxing then spending your vacation time in traffic jams
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 11:20 PM   #1998
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On the Gotthard route I take the pass whenever possible. Don't like that stupid tunnel with it's constant traffic jams and the smell + I like driving mountain roads (in good weather).
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 11:34 PM   #1999
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On the Gotthard route I take the pass whenever possible. Don't like that stupid tunnel with it's constant traffic jams and the smell + I like driving mountain roads (in good weather).
Instead of driving thru or over the Gotthard you could use the route over Bern - Interlaken - Meiringen - Grimselpass - Nufenenpass or from Luzern over Brünigpass - Grimselpass - Nufenenpass to Airolo.Its not much more time,often its even faster cause of the traffic jam on the A2 around Gotthard and you have on both Passes Grimsel and Nufenen a absolutely phantastic scenery that will 100%make you come back.The road is in very good condition,off course you have courves like on every alpine road but both are a real pleasure to drive
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Old September 4th, 2012, 12:22 AM   #2000
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This takes too long I dont know what´s the problem of using a shuttletrain or a ferry,its a part of travelling and much more relaxing then spending your vacation time in traffic jams
I've used it a couple of times, but it's too expensive.
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