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Old September 4th, 2012, 11:20 AM   #2001
Fabri88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
There is also Simplon pass and Bernina pass. Anyway if you want to go somewhere other than Switzerland itself then going through here is not a must. You could as easily go via Brenner pass or avoid alps altogether by taking a coastal highway from Genova to Marseille and then North through France.
Simplonpaß and Berninapaß are closed during winter as there is snow! And if we have to talk about all Alpine passes then there's also the Splügenpaß!

Infrastructures must be used at every day at every time!

Then, if I have to go to Frankfurt or Amsterdam which road I have to take? Do I have to pass through Brenner or via Geneva? It's obvious that everyone drive on the whole A2 from Mendrisio to Basel and then take the BAB5 when in Germany!
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Old September 4th, 2012, 11:32 AM   #2002
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Simplon-Sempione, Lucomagno-Lukmanier, Maloggia-Maloja, Giulia-Julier, Bernina and Pass dal Fuorn passes can be closed because of snow, but are kept open as much as possible because they are the only link between some villages and the rest of Switzerland (the Lucomagno less frequently because it has alternatives).

The Gotthard pass, as far I know, cannot be kept open all the winter not because it would be too expensive but because some parts are sometimes subjected to avalanche danger (that might be solved by building snowsheds).
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Old September 4th, 2012, 11:52 AM   #2003
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Ok, but I was talking about motorways or not so sinuous kantonstrasse.

To be honest, which is the person that has to drive through Switzerland and drives on Maloja or on Bernina? They are only roads of local/touristic interest.

But if we need a rapid transit through Switzerland there are no alternatives apart of Great Saint Bernard, Gotthard or Saint Bernardino.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 11:54 AM   #2004
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And of course the number of foreigners on them with inadequate winter protection getting stranded and gridlocking the entire area.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 11:57 AM   #2005
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And of course the number of foreigners on them with inadequate winter protection getting stranded and gridlocking the entire area.
I agree!

Driving in winter, especially on such alpine passes, is not an easy thing to cope with!

Safeness always comes first!
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Old September 4th, 2012, 03:07 PM   #2006
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Exactly! First of all there are alternative roads (Simplon and St Bernard) and second this won't happen before the commission of Gotthard base tunnel so there will be option to use a car shuttle as well. It will be inconvenient for sure, but that's kind of inevitable anyway.
When the Mont Blanc tunnel has been closed for 2.5 years for refurbishment nobody complained.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 03:16 PM   #2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
When the Mont Blanc tunnel has been closed for 2.5 years for refurbishment nobody complained.
How do you know? This sounds a lot like conjecture. Furthermore, the Gotthard Tunnel carries substantially more traffic than the Mont Blanc Tunnel.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 03:20 PM   #2008
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Frejus is a good alternative.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 04:56 PM   #2009
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
When the Mont Blanc tunnel has been closed for 2.5 years for refurbishment nobody complained.
The Mont Blanc tunnel it's used to go from Aosta Valley to Geneva. Trucks and cars had only to drive some more kms passing through the Great Saint Bernard and driving on the north side of Lac Leman.

Aosta - Genève (MBT) 133km 1h32m: https://maps.google.it/maps?saddr=Ao...t=h&mra=ls&z=9

Aosta - Genève (GSBT) 213km 2h38m: https://maps.google.it/maps?saddr=Ao...sz=9&via=1&z=9

If Gotthard tunnel would close down it would cause many, many problems. More than the closure of Mont Blanc.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 05:07 PM   #2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabri88 View Post
Simplonpaß and Berninapaß are closed during winter as there is snow! And if we have to talk about all Alpine passes then there's also the Splügenpaß!

Infrastructures must be used at every day at every time!

Then, if I have to go to Frankfurt or Amsterdam which road I have to take? Do I have to pass through Brenner or via Geneva? It's obvious that everyone drive on the whole A2 from Mendrisio to Basel and then take the BAB5 when in Germany!
The Splügenpass is to small and to "complicated" fo a "normal" tourist who is driving south and when you are in Splügen you use the San Bernardino motorway anyway.We were just talking about what can we do to avoid the Gotthard tunnel cause of the traffic problems there and my suggestion was to use the Grimsel and Nufenenpass where you can without any problems drive 80-90km/h.Imo this is even a better alternative then that what they always on radfio say to use the San Bernardino A13 instead of the A2
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Old September 4th, 2012, 07:34 PM   #2011
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Freight traffic on the Brenner Route increased notably after Switzerland introduced the LSVA (truck tolls). The Swiss tolls are about double that of the Austrian tolls, and I've read that empty foreign truck still have to pay the full amount (40 tons).
Not entirely true. The Brenner/Tauern/Pyrhn/Arlberg routes crossing the alps have a higher toll for trucks than the baseline toll. However, the route between Kufstein and Brenner is very much shorter than the route from Basel to Chiasso such that - in combination with the Italian "discount" tolls, the Brenner route is cheaper than the Gotthard route. But that is caused by the Italians rather than the Austrians.

BTW, in Austria the truck tolls are based on the amount of axles of the truck, so an empty truck pays the same as a full one as well!

I also got the impression from what I've heard round here that the federal council decision is not accepted at all - it should be either expanded to 4 lanes or no second tube is built. A second tube with 2 additional lanes is actually considered possible according to some recent polls (a referendum to revise the former limit on expanding alp-crossion roads would be necessary). Those polls see a majority for the repeal of that ban - limited to the Gotthard route.

Finally, when one looks at the AADT data of the Gotthard tunnel, a 2nd tube wouldn't be necessary on average, it's just that there are those heavy traffic weekends which call for it. However, one must also bear in mind that a motorway in the flat Netherlands has a much different impact on the environment than in a narrow Alpine valley, something many people who haven't grown up in mountainous regions often tend to forget.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 07:49 PM   #2012
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Finally, when one looks at the AADT data of the Gotthard tunnel, a 2nd tube wouldn't be necessary on average, it's just that there are those heavy traffic weekends which call for it.
Well, the recent ASTRA data shows it's not just a matter of a few busy weekends anymore, but 50% of the days in a year.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 07:54 PM   #2013
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Going via Brenner could also mean more mileage in Germany, which, as we know, also charges tolls for freight. And possibly more miles in Italy.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 08:08 PM   #2014
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Going via Brenner could also mean more mileage in Germany, which, as we know, also charges tolls for freight. And possibly more miles in Italy.
Cut out the "could": IT IS SO!!!

Brenner is good only from Northeast Italy! Trucks driving on the route Germany ←→ Northwest Italy (where the largest amount of Italian industries are located) have to pass through Gotthard (A2) / Saint Bernardino (A13) so through Switzerland!
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Old September 4th, 2012, 08:41 PM   #2015
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Honestly I don't care too much about trucks. Those are professional drivers and they might as well drive a longer route if conditions require it. Sure it would add an euro or two for goods being shipped this way, but there are alternative ways to transport goods as well (train, ship) or one can also use less distant suppliers.

And by the way it's only 300 km longer to go to Amsterdam from Milan via Turin and Lyon vs Gotthard pass and Basel (1380 km vs 1070 km). No big deal for a tourist on an extra long drive anyway.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 08:53 PM   #2016
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Honestly I don't care too much about trucks. Those are professional drivers and they might as well drive a longer route if conditions require it. Sure it would add an euro or two for goods being shipped this way, but there are alternative ways to transport goods as well (train, ship) or one can also use less distant suppliers.
It doesn't just wastefully increase the prices of the products we buy. The extra distance means more pollution, more road maintenance (higher taxes), and more accidents (including more deaths).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
And by the way it's only 300 km longer to go to Amsterdam from Milan via Turin and Lyon vs Gotthard pass and Basel (1380 km vs 1070 km). No big deal for a tourist on an extra long drive anyway.
No big deal??? For me at least, that's the difference between one day of driving and two days of driving.

BTW, via Geneva and Dijon is 1295 km and saves about 45 minutes compared to via Turin and Lyon, but it would still be a two day trip for me. Via Switzerland, I could drive Milan to Amsterdam in one day.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 08:58 PM   #2017
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No big deal??? For me at least, that's the difference between one day of driving and two days of driving.

BTW, via Geneva and Dijon is 1295 km and saves about 45 minutes compared to via Turin and Lyon, but it would still be a two day trip for me. Via Switzerland, I could drive Milan to Amsterdam in one day.
True, but you are a very unusual case. Usually people driving so far are on vacation and not in a great hurry. Those who don't have extra time fly. I'm pretty sure flying would be cheaper as well.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 09:07 PM   #2018
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True, but you are a very unusual case.
I concede that I'm not representative of the most typical driver on the roads, but I challenge the assertion that I represent a "very unusual case." I believe I represent a slightly unusual case, but I might be wrong about that.

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Usually people driving so far are on vacation and not in a great hurry. Those who don't have extra time fly. I'm pretty sure flying would be cheaper as well.
It depends on how many persons are in the vehicle and how much stuff they are carrying. Consider also the cost of renting a car at the destination, which is very expensive in Europe and often exceeds the airfare.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 09:08 PM   #2019
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True, but you are a very unusual case. Usually people driving so far are on vacation and not in a great hurry. Those who don't have extra time fly. I'm pretty sure flying would be cheaper as well.
Flying from Milan to Amsterdam is cheaper if you are only in one or two person on a car and, overall, if you are going only to Amsterdam nd you don't want/have to go in other Dutch or Belgian towns.

Then I totally agree with Mcarling. Those are the three alternatives on the Milan - Amsterdam route:

Normal route (via Gotthard and so Switzerland, paying only the 40CHF/100CHF Vignette) 1078 km: https://maps.google.it/maps?saddr=Mi...a=ls&z=6&via=1

Route via France 1276 km (and with Italian and very expensive French toll): https://maps.google.it/maps?saddr=Mi...sz=9&via=1&z=6

Route via Austria 1321 km (with Italian toll, Austrian vignette and Europabrücke toll): https://maps.google.it/maps?saddr=Mi...sz=6&via=1&z=6
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Old September 4th, 2012, 09:11 PM   #2020
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Well, the recent ASTRA data shows it's not just a matter of a few busy weekends anymore, but 50% of the days in a year.
AADT at Gotthard is 17.100 cars/24 hrs (1510 trucks/24 hrs) in 2010.
http://www.astra.admin.ch/verkehrsda...x.html?lang=de

The number of traffic jam days is indeed around 40% by now, but this is useless without the length of the delays, which won't be available before the 2012 reports.

If you ask me, I agree that a 2nd tube at Gotthard should be built, but many people disagree. Which is their good right. But anyway, I guess there'll be a referendum about the case within two years (including the possibility of a 4-lane-extension). Just my two cents.
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