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Old September 5th, 2012, 07:43 PM   #2041
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Environmentalists are against everything. Coal power plant? too dirty. Nuclear energy? too dangerous. Wind turbines? Disturbing and a threat to birds. Hydropower? Too destructive.
One of the few times I agree with what you say... if it were for them there would be no civilization, they're always complaining but offer no real alternatives.
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Old September 5th, 2012, 08:24 PM   #2042
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One of the few times I agree with what you say... if it were for them there would be no civilization, they're always complaining but offer no real alternatives.
Which is the reason I always dismiss arguments against a given road/railway/dam/power plant on "local nuisance and damagE"
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Old September 5th, 2012, 08:27 PM   #2043
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Sometimes there are other alternatives than new roads.
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Old September 5th, 2012, 08:35 PM   #2044
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Yeah more congestion.
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Old September 5th, 2012, 08:36 PM   #2045
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Environmentalists are against everything. Coal power plant? too dirty. Nuclear energy? too dangerous. Wind turbines? Disturbing and a threat to birds. Hydropower? Too destructive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaud View Post
One of the few times I agree with what you say... if it were for them there would be no civilization, they're always complaining but offer no real alternatives.
There are environmentalists and there are environmentalists. I for one think nuclear energy's necessary, at least in the short term, despite the risks. Which are still probably less than the risks (geopolitical ones as well as environmental) of continued dependence on imported fossil fuels.


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Which is the reason I always dismiss arguments against a given road/railway/dam/power plant on "local nuisance and damagE"
Whole other subject. Wanting the whole world to look like Los Angeles and ****-you-if-you-don't-agree-with-me-when-I-want-to-pave-over-your-neighborhood* is not principled anti-environmentalism; it's just... well, I don't know what to call it, but I don't like it.

*What ever happened to Nima Farid?
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Old September 5th, 2012, 08:38 PM   #2046
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I'm referring to the main tactic of any environmentalist in regard of infrastructure works: "it's going to irreversible damage xyz".

Of course, any time you do earthwork or build a permanent structure it will permanently alter the landscape!
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Old September 5th, 2012, 08:43 PM   #2047
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Well, the general discussion over the last few days about Autobahnen in places like the Tyrol....

Which I haven't participated in because I think both sides have a legitimate point of view, and the answer is to come up with a decision-making process that gives both (or all) sides a say.

(As opposed to digging up old maps of projects canceled 40 years ago, starting a thread titled "Canceled Freeways Must Be Built" and then denying, if pressed, that you actually think that. That was a trip!)

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Old September 5th, 2012, 08:54 PM   #2048
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Yeah more congestion.
Or a traffic ban, or an improvement on other means (including walking), or forcing traffic to use alternative roads, or better urban/landscape planning (like building supermarkets/hospitals/etc far from motorways and public transport), ...

Sometimes these can be an alternative, if not forever, temporary and acceptable.

Sure, sometimes also a road is the best alternative (like the third lane on the common part of A1 and A2 in Switzerland, the A4 Gotthard-Zürich or Zürich's bypass). But only if there are really no other options.
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Old September 5th, 2012, 08:59 PM   #2049
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Yep, banning and forcing. That's how unrealistic idealists approach transportation issues. Repression of other people's behavior is their way of thinking.
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Old September 5th, 2012, 09:01 PM   #2050
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Off topic to Switzerland (I'll put it in Roadside Rest as well) but on topic to, um, balancing methods of transportation:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/05/bu...t4+S1jM4Q7Sj/Q

One of China's leading car-manufacturing cities is limiting its citizens' ability to acquire new cars.
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Old September 5th, 2012, 09:29 PM   #2051
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That can only work in authoritarian countries. Not in Western Europe (legally they might try that but the political repercussions would make it impossible).
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Old September 5th, 2012, 09:39 PM   #2052
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Yep, banning and forcing. That's how unrealistic idealists approach transportation issues. Repression of other people's behavior is their way of thinking.
It's that some people think that space, fuel or a good environment is endless or not necessary, and think that going wherever they want with their car it's their right. Doing that, they damage other citizens - but they don't care about that...

If a resource is limited and cannot be expanded (or cannot be easily) then the demand should be limited - like in hotels or airplanes, where if they are full, extra users have to search for alternatives.

Enlarging the A123456 in the endless plain of the Netherlands may be good, destroying a city to widen an urban street or building a new road through mountains is usually not. So downgrading country roads as they do in the Netherlands it's stupid, creating obstacles to car use in cities or mountains is good.
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Old September 5th, 2012, 09:51 PM   #2053
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If a resource is limited and cannot be expanded (or cannot be easily) then the demand should be limited - like in hotels or airplanes, where if they are full, extra users have to search for alternatives.
There are no such problems with the Gotthard or other necessary road projects in Switzerland. A second Gotthard tube is perfectly possible, both technically and financially. The truckers pay enough tolls in Switzerland to finance a new tube every three years. A widening of several parts of the A1 is also perfectly possible.

Nobody's talking about building motorways through every valley of the Alps, but the few links that do exist are simply too weak and unreliable now. If a train was as unreliable as the Gotthard route, there would be immense political outcry over it. There is only one motorway-standard route through the Alps (Brenner Autobahn) to connect a country of 82 million and a country of 60 million with Switzerland and Austria in between, and if they like it or not, people and goods will be moved to and through them. It's much better to strengthen existing links than building new links. That includes the A2.
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Old September 5th, 2012, 10:08 PM   #2054
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Quote:
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Environmentalists are against everything. Coal power plant? too dirty. Nuclear energy? too dangerous. Wind turbines? Disturbing and a threat to birds. Hydropower? Too destructive.
I agree with those against coal and nuclear, other no.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old September 5th, 2012, 10:28 PM   #2055
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If you ask me, I agree that another full motorway between Italy and North Europe is acceptable, also if that is the Gotthard (I don't think it's urgent, though, as there are other road bottlenecks in Switzerland and the Gotthard Pass it's not a so bad alternative for cars). However, I also think that if there is an acceptable rail alternative use of this should be forced whenever possible. So tourist cars which come together in summer and some other days (but are practically absent from October to May) don't have alternatives and that's ok if they use the A2. But I don't think that the more or lest constant (without peaks and lows) flux of trucks really cannot be moved by rail. So I would fully agree their ban, if a rail alternative will be available (not or not only a Basel-Chiasso shuttle carrying complete trucks as it is economically unviable, but services like Milano-Rhein Ruhr or Milano-Amsterdam carrying semitrailers only (or, better, containers and swap bodies)).

To give this rail alternative intermodal yards are needed, but as there is basically no place in Ticino (the very rare plains are already nearly all used or far from the border) they should be built in Italy (also east of Milano, as Hupac asks). But with a 2x2 Gotthard tunnel, the chances Italy will do something for rail will be even lower than they are today...

So next year (or maybe in 2014?) I will certainly vote "no" to the second Gotthard road tunnel, but I would probably vote differently if rail was improved...

As for the truck tax it will not be possible to use it otherwise at least until the FinÖV/FTP rail fund is paid pack (if you remember, I said some weeks ago that in Switzerland public works cannot start if there is not all the needed money from the beginning or a fixed way to finance them) (in the case of this rail fund, to accelerate works the government lent some money to that fund, so the fund will later have to bay back that).
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Old September 5th, 2012, 11:13 PM   #2056
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The Gotthard Tunnel happens to have a birthday today, it turns 32 years old! It opened September 5, 1980.
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Old September 5th, 2012, 11:43 PM   #2057
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
It's that some people think that space, fuel or a good environment is endless or not necessary, and think that going wherever they want with their car it's their right. Doing that, they damage other citizens - but they don't care about that...
That's the standard problem of negative externalities. The solution is a Pigouvian tax that internalizes all the costs upon the persons doing the damage.

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I agree with those against coal and nuclear, other no.
Coal kills more people every year than all the nuclear power plant accidents so far combined. We could have a Chernobyl scale incident every year and coal would still be more deadly. Of course, I'm not advocating more Chernobyl scale incidents. I support replacing all the soviet reactors with Generation III reactors.

The Generation III nuclear power plants being built now are about 100 times safer than the Generation II nuclear power plants which represent nearly all the currently operating plants. Wisely, all the Generation I plants have been shut down.
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Old September 6th, 2012, 01:02 AM   #2058
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The Gotthard Tunnel happens to have a birthday today, it turns 32 years old! It opened September 5, 1980.
When I first drove through it in the summer of 2000, I didn't even know it was the longest road tunnel in the world.
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Old September 6th, 2012, 01:12 AM   #2059
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Environmentalists are against everything. Coal power plant? too dirty. Nuclear energy? too dangerous. Wind turbines? Disturbing and a threat to birds. Hydropower? Too destructive.
Sadly true!!!
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Old September 6th, 2012, 01:14 AM   #2060
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Yeah more congestion.


100% Agree!!!
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