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Old November 22nd, 2013, 10:33 PM   #2461
John Maynard
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Yes, but remember that hardly anyone pays a full price (half fare card is cheap and widespread) and commuter passes are subsidised. I pay 740 chf a year for Basel area - very cheap in my opinion.
When I used to live in Warsaw, a major European city, I paid something like 110 CHF a year for all urban transportation, that includes metro, fast mass transit railways, urban railways, trams (lot of them), buses, express buses, touristic lines, etc.

Many of them doesn't even exists in CH (like excellent express buses) and certainly not in Basel.
The area of Warsaw is 517 kmē comparing to Basel 23,91 kmē and public transportation is very dense in the first.
So, it's actually very expensive IMHO - you should travel more outside CH and compare prices before making firm statements.

Note that Warsaw has one of the highest wages for this part of Europe.


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At that point a proper subway might be justified.
I hope so! Metro is a very good solution for cities, but except Lausanne, there is none.
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 10:40 PM   #2462
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Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
When I used to live in Warsaw, a major European city, I paid something like 110 CHF a year for all urban transportation, that includes metro, fast mass transit railways, urban railways, tram (lot of them), buses, express buses, touristic lines, etc.

Many of them doesn't even exists in CH (like excellent express buses) and certainly not in Basel.
The area of Warsaw is 517 kmē comparing to Basel 23,91 kmē and public transportation is very dense in the first.
So, it's actually very expensive IMHO - you should travel more outside CH and compare prices before making firm statements.
No way the average citizen in Warsaw makes anywhere close to Basel salaries. As for the area our pass is valid in about 30-35 km radius around the city (in Switzerland only) in all modes of transport. I still think we get a very good deal. Comparable passes in neighbouring Germany or in UK are a lot more expensive...
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 10:59 PM   #2463
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No way the average citizen in Warsaw makes anywhere close to Basel salaries. As for the area our pass is valid in about 30-35 km radius around the city (in Switzerland only) in all modes of transport. I still think we get a very good deal. Comparable passes in neighbouring Germany or in UK are a lot more expensive...
What make you write this way, have you got a superiority complex? Problem with all we wrote is that you think, that YOU (we, in fact) are the best in every field, ignoring advancements and possible changes in others European cultures, as thinking that everyone needs us. That's not true, we use too much propaganda against ourselves in this matter. You haven't even mentioned that for an average Swiss it has become almost unaffordable to live in his own country.
Furthermore, it's not true what you have stated; I lived in many places in Europe, also in Berlin, and it was cheaper than Basel, even if taking the fact that it's a much, much more bigger city (not comparable with any city in CH) .
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 11:12 PM   #2464
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What make you write this way, have you got a superiority complex? Problem with all we wrote is that you think, that YOU (we, in fact) are the best in every field, ignoring advancements and possible changes in others European cultures, as thinking that everyone needs us. That's not true, we use too much propaganda against ourselves in this matter. You haven't even mentioned that for an average Swiss it has become almost unaffordable to live in his own country.
Furthermore, it's not true what you have stated; I lived in many places in Europe, also in Berlin, and it was cheaper than Basel, even if taking the fact that it's a much, much more biggest city (not comparable with any city in CH) .
Just for your information I was not actually born in Switzerland so let's cut all this superiority nonsense, ok?

Besides I don't think I wrote anything about cultural superiority. What I did write is about the economic success of the country and that would be very difficult to deny. Or do you think all those Germans moving here do so because they like mountains so much? There is always a percentage of people who don't know how to deal with money plus living on minimum salary is not fun anywhere, but objectively there is plenty of $$$ around here. Trust me it's a lot harder to live on an mean salary in Latvia (my native country) or US (lived there for 7 years).

As for public transport prices I was comparing not with Berlin, but with areas nearby just across the Rhine. Admittedly pretty much anything else is cheaper there.
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 11:42 PM   #2465
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Just for your information I was not actually born in Switzerland so let's cut all this superiority nonsense, ok?

Besides I don't think I wrote anything about cultural superiority. What I did write is about the economic success of the country and that would be very difficult to deny. Or do you think all those Germans moving here do so because they like mountains so much? There is always a percentage of people who don't know how to deal with money plus living on minimum salary is not fun anywhere, but objectively there is plenty of $$$ around here. Trust me it's a lot harder to live on an mean salary in Latvia (my native country) or US (lived there for 7 years).

As for public transport prices I was comparing not with Berlin, but with areas nearby just across the Rhine. Admittedly pretty much anything else is cheaper there.
No, you just act like having a superiority complex to point that you're the best .
So, according to you most average Swiss doesn't know how to deal with money? Isn't it a consequence of high rising of rentals prices (as you wrote previously), increasing of prices in general, transport costs going up, health insurance fees exploding, at almost 10% a year increase (while benefit decreases), food prices on the rise, holiday prices in CH upwards each year, while salary stagnates; curiously he doesn't seems to feel this "plenty of $$$ around here".
Very funny point of view, are you sure you're not one of these Zürcher "selfish" wondering only for his close sweeties .

Germans (doctors) move here because they can earn money without being taxed (or very low), as banks are even closer, all equipped with banking secrecy, and lax taxing authorities in severe under-effective (just to say we don't care). This is the point. Good for Swiss, but disastrous for other countries. Instead, we could export some of our political equipment, but it's not very successful neither. Perhaps, we could drill a second Gotthard bore elsewhere, per ex. Arlberg, as it seems to be impossible here .

Last edited by John Maynard; November 22nd, 2013 at 11:59 PM.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 12:05 AM   #2466
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So what's your point anyway? Switzerland is a bad, bad place and we'd be better off living Berlin or Warsaw? Feel free, there are always some who go against the general trend.

By they way nothing particular against those two cities except maybe the cold winter. I do like where I live right now, though.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 12:25 AM   #2467
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Switzerland is not that extremely congested. The most congested Swiss city, as expressed in the Travel Time Index, is Bern, which #56 of the surveyed 59 most congested urban areas of Europe. To compare, Berlin ranks #15 and Vienna #16.

(Note that the Travel Time Index measures the average delay per trip, which removes the distortion of city size to congestion rankings).

http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/trafficindex/
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 12:27 AM   #2468
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So what's your point anyway? Switzerland is a bad, bad place and we'd be better off living Berlin or Warsaw? Feel free, there are always some who go against the general trend.

By they way nothing particular against those two cities except maybe the cold winter. I do like where I live right now, though.
No, no and no! I never said that, but many people here are likely to think that they can have one's cake and eat it too (btw., very popular expression here )!
How could we house all these foreigners without improving any of our infrastructures, nor roads, nor housings, nor schools, nor anything, and even not exporting some of our "Swissness". It's very important, as all the world is becoming more and more skeptical to us, and all we can do is to submit like cowards (per ex. lex america) .
To pinpoint, I see no further economic development in here without accepting the consequences of it.

Last edited by John Maynard; November 23rd, 2013 at 01:11 AM.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 12:29 AM   #2469
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Switzerland is not that extremely congested. The most congested Swiss city, as expressed in the Travel Time Index, is Bern, which #56 of the surveyed 59 most congested urban areas of Europe. To compare, Berlin ranks #15 and Vienna #16.

(Note that the Travel Time Index measures the average delay per trip, which removes the distortion of city size to congestion rankings).

http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/trafficindex/
And Warsaw is the third most congested city in Europe .

Anyway, is this ranking not taking into consideration the area of a city for an average journey?

Last edited by John Maynard; November 23rd, 2013 at 12:37 AM.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 12:30 AM   #2470
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Switzerland is not that extremely congested. The most congested Swiss city, as expressed in the Travel Time Index, is Bern, which #56 of the surveyed 59 most congested urban areas of Europe. To compare, Berlin ranks #15 and Vienna #16.

(Note that the Travel Time Index measures the average delay per trip, which removes the distortion of city size to congestion rankings).

http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/trafficindex/
Isn't that for driving only? I think the most honest measurement would be the average commute time regardless of a mode of transport.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 12:38 AM   #2471
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Only 15% of people's weekly trips are to and from work. So congestion is not only during commuting. Only about 30% of the AADT on the average major motorway is caused by commuting to work motives.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 12:38 AM   #2472
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How could we house all these foreigners without improving any of our infrastructures, nor roads, nor housings, nor schools, nor anything, and even not exporting some of our "Swissness". It's very important, as all the world is becoming more and more skeptical to us, and all we can do is to submit like cowards (per ex. lex america) .
To pinpoint, I see no further economic development in here without accepting the consequences of it.
I, on the other hand, never said that improvements are not needed! Question of course is what is improvement and in what direction to go...

One of the advantages of doing business (or living) in Switzerland despite high prices for most things is low taxes. Understandably society is reluctant to endanger that. Swiss prices + French taxes would be a deadly combination indeed.

P.S. Which part of "Swissness" you'd like to export?
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 12:54 AM   #2473
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P.S. Which part of "Swissness" you'd like to export?
Definitively, our political "tools" of direct democracy - we could therefore compare other countries people's (not part of the government) opinions and make Europe more "democratic and free"; some low taxes; I wish we could export more swiss food, as well as Swiss cultural symbols like "unity despite diversity" and senses of "clean and tidy". They're many more in fact, but I don't have them in mind actually .
Our experience of tunneling and high altitude infrastructure could be an important contribution to other countries either.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 01:15 AM   #2474
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Food will be difficult to say the least. You don't see all that many German restaurants abroad either and for a good reason…

Romandie maybe different, I don't travel there often.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 01:17 AM   #2475
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It is hard to compare prices of services that are subsidized AND heavily reliant on manpower while ignoring differences in wages and tax policy.

Express buses, for instance, require 1 driver for an average of - say - 20 passengers (plus any non-revenue driving). That is some expensive thing to have in a country like Switzerland.

It has nothing to do with superiority or inferiority of cultures, it has all to do with costs.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 01:29 AM   #2476
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It is hard to compare prices of services that are subsidized AND heavily reliant on manpower while ignoring differences in wages and tax policy.

Express buses, for instance, require 1 driver for an average of - say - 20 passengers (plus any non-revenue driving). That is some expensive thing to have in a country like Switzerland.

It has nothing to do with superiority or inferiority of cultures, it has all to do with costs.
So "poor" Poland or even "poor" Germany can afford it but not "rich" Switzerland.

Taxing in Poland is mostly comparable to CH (they're 2 flat rates), except VAT (but you can deduce it on many items by appropriate means).

As Sunfuns wrote isn't there "plenty of $$$ around here"? So is it just another "Swiss Myth"?

Thank you not to highlight your superiority by being curious of your European "neighbors" .

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Old November 23rd, 2013, 01:39 AM   #2477
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Food will be difficult to say the least. You don't see all that many German restaurants abroad either and for a good reason…

Romandie maybe different, I don't travel there often.
You are disgraceful to our good cuisine (sometime fat, it's true), what else, you should also travel more in CH and eat more regional specialties .
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 01:45 AM   #2478
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It's not always a question of being able to afford or not, but also "do we need it and at what price?". You could in principle have a lot more public services here (free kindergarden like in France, for example), but the price would be higher taxes. Besides is it actually true that Swiss per capita investment for public transport is lower than in Germany or Poland?

If you have to pay high salaries for your employees the incentive to automatise is much higher. That's just basic economics!

There's lot of wealth in the hands of private citizens, not necessarily for central government.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 01:48 AM   #2479
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You are disgraceful to our good cuisine (sometime fat, it's true), what else, you should also travel more in CH and eat more regional specialties .
I've been in virtually every notable Swiss town at least once

I'm just being honest. France and Italy have their own problems but food is better there for sure.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 01:48 AM   #2480
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There's lot of wealth in the hands of private citizens, not necessarily for central government.
Correction, in the hands of few private citizens or corporations .
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