daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old November 23rd, 2013, 01:54 AM   #2481
John Maynard
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Lausanne (CH); Warsaw (PL)
Posts: 534
Likes (Received): 376

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I've been in virtually every notable Swiss town at least once

I'm just being honest. France and Italy have their own problems but food is better there for sure.
I must go to sleep now, so I have to wake up early. Good night .
John Maynard no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old November 23rd, 2013, 11:19 AM   #2482
radamfi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Crawley
Posts: 551
Likes (Received): 58

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Only 15% of people's weekly trips are to and from work. So congestion is not only during commuting. Only about 30% of the AADT on the average major motorway is caused by commuting to work motives.
Is that for Switzerland or for all countries?
radamfi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 11:35 AM   #2483
radamfi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Crawley
Posts: 551
Likes (Received): 58

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Express buses, for instance, require 1 driver for an average of - say - 20 passengers (plus any non-revenue driving). That is some expensive thing to have in a country like Switzerland.
I presume you are talking about the Swiss Postbuses? Why would they be particularly expensive in Switzerland? Express buses are run totally commercially in the UK and Ireland. National Express in the UK run a near nationwide network of services and Megabus (brand of Stagecoach) compete against National Express on most of its major routes. Even in Ireland there is competition on routes like Dublin to Galway. Germany has now got a lot of express buses since the market was deregulated.

Of course, the cost of the driver will be much more expensive in Switzerland, but I expect that the fares are much higher on average. Some of the tourist routes have eye-watering fares.
radamfi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 12:08 PM   #2484
radamfi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Crawley
Posts: 551
Likes (Received): 58

If commuting journeys are only a small proportion of traffic, then there must be a lot of driving done at off-peak times for business and social travel, and at these times the trains are not so crowded. So Swiss people must be driving in preference to using the train, even when the train is available.
radamfi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 12:41 PM   #2485
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,604
Likes (Received): 19391

If you look at hourly volumes of a major motorway (example: A12 in the Netherlands, east of Zoetermeer), you can see the off-peak volumes are only about 25% lower than peak volumes.


If you look at a motorway with more through traffic, you'll see volumes are quite stable through the day, with not a significant peak hour (example: A1 east of Hilversum).


The latter graph shows a motorway that is very close to being congested throughout the day, a widening to 2x4 lanes is planned there.
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 12:52 PM   #2486
John Maynard
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Lausanne (CH); Warsaw (PL)
Posts: 534
Likes (Received): 376

The express buses I've been pointing, are urban buses with stops only at main artery stations, where there is the more request (no between).

However, you are talking about inter-city express buses, as well, they cruelly lack in CH, we do not have smth. like National Express, Bus Eireann, Polski Bus, Berlin Linien Bus, etc. (all private companies) on regular scheduled trip.
Instead, we have no choice but state-owned CFF-SBB that practices railway monopoly in this field; as if it wasn't already high enough, they're rising prices every year, nearly as they wish (Mr price is quite shy in here), and they don't even bother doing so, even if they are subsidized by taxpayers (also motorists) money.
Swiss Post buses (also a state-owned monopoly) only links area where CFF-SBB doesn't have a reliable connection or some touristic journeys.
Of course, you a free to use a car/motorbike, but that's not public transport anymore.
Though, riding a motorcycle in the Furka Pass is very great too .

Last edited by John Maynard; November 23rd, 2013 at 01:37 PM.
John Maynard no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 02:50 PM   #2487
radamfi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Crawley
Posts: 551
Likes (Received): 58

Many European countries still don't allow private bus companies to compete against trains for inter-city travel, including Belgium, the Netherlands, Austria, France, Italy as well as Switzerland.

You can find international bus services calling at numerous towns in one country, but they don't usually allow domestic travel. For example, the London to Amsterdam Megabus service calls at Gent, Antwerpen and Rotterdam, but does not allow travel from Amsterdam to Rotterdam, or from Gent to Antwerpen.
radamfi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 04:13 PM   #2488
radamfi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Crawley
Posts: 551
Likes (Received): 58

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
If you look at hourly volumes of a major motorway (example: A12 in the Netherlands, east of Zoetermeer), you can see the off-peak volumes are only about 25% lower than peak volumes.
Maybe traffic profiles differ by country?

The motorway near my house (M23 in West Sussex, south of London and M25) does have a significantly higher flow in peak times, and shows obvious tidality with traffic going to the M25 in the morning and back from it in the evening.


Hour Northbound Southbound
7 4677 2807
8 4335 3042
9 3159 2733
10 2401 2423
11 2230 2666
12 2212 2552
13 2212 2531
14 2548 2772
15 2782 3180
16 2946 4311
17 3438 4806
18 2723 4108


A very important strategic and congested motorway (M6 in Cheshire, between Manchester and Birmingham) has a more constant flow through the day, but still more peaked than your A1 example.


Hour Northbound Southbound
7 4903 5025
8 4675 4284
9 3942 4229
10 3981 4561
11 3397 4217
12 3389 3958
13 3095 3955
14 3480 4220
15 3600 4323
16 4407 4492
17 4193 3804
18 3116 4069

Last edited by radamfi; November 23rd, 2013 at 04:20 PM.
radamfi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 04:22 PM   #2489
John Maynard
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Lausanne (CH); Warsaw (PL)
Posts: 534
Likes (Received): 376

Exactly, it's not only a swiss issue.

These prohibitions are just stupid; I would like to know what Swiss would have to say in this matter, as they always seemed to take position in favor of free enterprise and low taxes.

Is Europe in general becoming more liberal than us?
John Maynard no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 05:02 PM   #2490
radamfi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Crawley
Posts: 551
Likes (Received): 58

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Exactly, it's not only a swiss issue.

These prohibitions are just stupid; I would like to know what Swiss would have to say in this matter, as they always seemed to take position in favor of free enterprise and low taxes.

Is Europe in general becoming more liberal than us?
Public transport in Switzerland is well known for being very integrated. Integrated transport doesn't normally sit well with competition. The argument is that competing services undermine the primary network and resources consumed by the competition could be used to improve services elsewhere.

However, you can introduce an element of competition, but maintain integration, if services are tendered. Integration is also very important in the Netherlands, but all bus services outside the main cities are tendered. Does tendering for public transport exist in Switzerland?

In some countries, train fares are so cheap that there would not be so much of a market for competing inter-city bus services. For example, the maximum fare in Belgium is €20.60 and in the Netherlands it is €24.60, although these can easily be reduced to €7.60 in Belgium (10 tickets for €76) and €14.80 in the Netherlands (with the Dal Voordeel). However, I do appreciate that cheap bus services can be a lifeline to those on a low income. You can easily travel from London to Manchester (300 km) on a bus for £10 or less. But in Switzerland I guess people are so rich this argument doesn't work.
radamfi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 05:19 PM   #2491
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

Cheap buses would work here as well, but the thinking is that allowing them would damage the public investment in railways, crowd motorways even more and transfer public funds (used to build roads) to private companies. One could challenge this opinion of course, but I haven't heard of much movement in this direction. People actually prefer less traffic not more hence all the opposition to the second Gotthard tunnel.
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 05:41 PM   #2492
radamfi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Crawley
Posts: 551
Likes (Received): 58

I don't think a new network of inter-city buses would make much of an impact on motorway traffic. Even in the UK, which probably has more coaches (long distance buses in Britain are known as coaches) than anywhere else in Europe, you are only looking at a maximum of about 20 vehicles per hour on each of the main approaches to London.
radamfi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 05:58 PM   #2493
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,604
Likes (Received): 19391

This is an hourly traffic count of A1 near Würenlos (just west of Zürich). Although there are pronounced peaks, the lowest hourly volume between the peaks is just 30% lower than the highest hourly volume.

Although a congested motorway may seem much busier than free-flowing traffic, throughput per hour is actually lower when totally congested than free-flow traffic (theoretically the throughput with completely stationary traffic is 0 vehicles/hour).

__________________

my clinched highways / travel mapping • highway photography @ Flickr and Youtube

Suburbanist liked this post
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 08:08 PM   #2494
Verso
Islander
 
Verso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ljubljana
Posts: 22,087
Likes (Received): 4749

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Switzerland is not that extremely congested. The most congested Swiss city, as expressed in the Travel Time Index, is Bern, which #56 of the surveyed 59 most congested urban areas of Europe. To compare, Berlin ranks #15 and Vienna #16.

(Note that the Travel Time Index measures the average delay per trip, which removes the distortion of city size to congestion rankings).

http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/trafficindex/
They must be joking. Bern is the only Swiss city where traffic runs smoothly.
Verso no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 08:31 PM   #2495
radamfi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Crawley
Posts: 551
Likes (Received): 58

From my brief observations when on holiday in Switzerland, it certainly seems that volumes of traffic inside major Swiss cities seem very low compared to comparable sized towns in other countries, even if car traffic does seem to be slow moving. Importantly, local buses and trams do not suffer delays due to congestion. It does, however, raise the question as to where the vast amount of motorway traffic goes.
radamfi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 08:48 PM   #2496
radamfi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Crawley
Posts: 551
Likes (Received): 58

I just looked at the train fare from Geneva to Zurich, nearly 300 km, and the normal fare with a Half Fare card is only 42 CHF. That's really not very much considering Swiss incomes. A competing bus service wouldn't be able to get away with charging more than 20 CHF, which surely isn't economic.
radamfi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 09:13 PM   #2497
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

Not necessarily. A driving cost in gas alone between the same destinations in a moderately fuel efficient car would be 30-35 chf one way. A train would be a bit faster and less stressful for a lone traveler, but if you have a full car then it's different.
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 09:45 PM   #2498
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Children up to 16 years old travelling with their parents or grand parents pay only 30 CHF per year, then the General Abo for families is cheaper than the sum of separate GAs.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 09:57 PM   #2499
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

I know, but for a GA to pay off you either need to commute every day across the regional boundaries (Aarau-Basel, for example) or travel across the country often (Zurich-Geneva once a week or more). Otherwise you are better off with a local pass + half fare card.
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 24th, 2013, 03:07 PM   #2500
Corvinus
License plate spotter
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: H / D / CH
Posts: 1,058
Likes (Received): 1190

In today's referendum, the proposal to increase motorway toll to CHF 100.- p.a. (from currently 40.-) is unlikely to win:

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/15823189

Corvinus no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
schweiz

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium