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Old November 24th, 2013, 05:01 PM   #2501
Coccodrillo
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Around 60% of voters refused the increase (but I was not one of them). Even if the vignette increase wouldn't have given much more money to roads than today, the refusal will likely delay even more road projects (which are already extremely slow there).

In addition, this "no" means that all cantonal roads which were to be given to the federal government will remain for the time being in charge to the cantons, together with the relative projects like A13 Bellinzona-Locarno autostrasse or the A20 bypasses of Le Locle and La Chaux-de-Fonds (these will certainly be delayed, as Ticino and Neuchâtel cantons cannot pay for them now).

I don't know what the federal government will do now. It is possible it will find other ways to finance the transfer of the roads from cantons to the federation, as it is possible the 400 km of cantonal roads will remain cantonal for decades.

Note that the referendum opposing the vignette increase was supported by both road associations (and right parties, because they say road transport already produces enough money/taxes, and the vignette increase would not lead to more roads) and by ecologist associations (including the more left/green parties, because they want less money for roads). And if the two opposites support the same referendum, then it should be evident than one of the two is a liar...in this case, it is likely the liar are the pro-roads associations, and the winner the greens, because road projects will be delayed (if not abandoned-but delaying a project by 30 years is similar to abandoning it).
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Old November 24th, 2013, 08:20 PM   #2502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radamfi View Post
I just looked at the train fare from Geneva to Zurich, nearly 300 km, and the normal fare with a Half Fare card is only 42 CHF. That's really not very much considering Swiss incomes. A competing bus service wouldn't be able to get away with charging more than 20 CHF, which surely isn't economic.
On the other hand, I recently had to go from Zürich to Schöftland AG (around 60 km) and the return fare without half fare card was over 51 CHF which is quite a rip-off, IMHO.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 09:04 PM   #2503
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You must be using public transport seldom, otherwise you wold have had a half fare card. It pays off very quickly. Prices are very high without it, no argument about that.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 09:26 PM   #2504
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vignette referendum

The geography of the vignette referendum.


(all cantons voted against).
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Old November 24th, 2013, 09:50 PM   #2505
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Results canton by canton: http://www.24heures.ch/front/storybu...story/12062532

Without surprise, cantons near the border (Genève, Schaffhausen, Ticino) mainly rejected the increase by 60 to nearly 70%, while those where big road projects were mostly advanced (A17 Glarus, A20 Neuchâtel) nearly accepted it (49% of yes).

The record is held by Fribourg-Freiburg, with 64.4% of no.

The exception is Basel City, with 48% of yes but with no national road project.

(all percentages without blank and invalid votes)
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Old November 24th, 2013, 09:55 PM   #2506
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Quite convincing I would say. Whether this actually results in a decrease of road construction remains to be seen.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 10:00 PM   #2507
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Road construction is not entirely dependent on the vignette revenue anyway. The revenue is only about € 230 million. Nice, but by far not enough to cover the cost of maintenance, operation and construction of the National Road network.

The construction argument was just to entice voters to approve the new price.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 10:17 PM   #2508
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The revenue would have doubled if the increase had been approved. However, the point is not that there will be 230 M€ less, but that political discussion will have to start again and the cantonal projects which were to be transferred will be delayed even more. But it is true that the additional 230 M€ wouldn't have been enough to finance all these projects (except maybe A17 and A20).
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Old November 25th, 2013, 05:25 AM   #2509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The revenue would have doubled if the increase had been approved. However, the point is not that there will be 230 M€ less, but that political discussion will have to start again and the cantonal projects which were to be transferred will be delayed even more. But it is true that the additional 230 M€ wouldn't have been enough to finance all these projects (except maybe A17 and A20).
An increase of 150% of the vignette price for all drivers on Swiss motorways, only to finance two short local bypasses on not very populated areas with few transit traffic wouldn't make any sense anyway IMHO.

Yet, the vignette price increase wouldn't have brought any concrete but marginal financing for big projects on national highways or agglomerations, though.

Also, the increase of price would affect only national (federal) road funds, not local nor cantonal.

In this matter, we already have a special fund for roads; why not use it?

Last edited by John Maynard; November 25th, 2013 at 05:47 AM.
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Old November 25th, 2013, 10:00 AM   #2510
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Quote:
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You must be using public transport seldom, otherwise you wold have had a half fare card. It pays off very quickly. Prices are very high without it, no argument about that.
I use it pretty often, but only within Zurich where I have an annual pass. For longer distances, I most often go to my parents' place in Bregenz where the train is not really a useful alternative. From my work place in Dübendorf I'm in Bregenz in 1:20 to 1:30 h, with the train it's not possible under 2:30 to 2:45 h. As I have a car anyway for commuting (unfortunately, using the car gives me a time advantage of about one hour per day vs public transport) the half fare card does not make too much sense for me (I agree that it pays off quite quickly if you use the train more frequently).
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Old November 25th, 2013, 04:46 PM   #2511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rower2000 View Post
I use it pretty often, but only within Zurich where I have an annual pass. For longer distances, I most often go to my parents' place in Bregenz where the train is not really a useful alternative. From my work place in Dübendorf I'm in Bregenz in 1:20 to 1:30 h, with the train it's not possible under 2:30 to 2:45 h. As I have a car anyway for commuting (unfortunately, using the car gives me a time advantage of about one hour per day vs public transport) the half fare card does not make too much sense for me (I agree that it pays off quite quickly if you use the train more frequently).
The all concept of half fare card is that the client subsidize for 1,2 or 3 years the CFF-SBB, to get finally as a reward a more expensive tariff, compared to full price (not to mention many additional discount offers) in neighboring countries. In fact, if you don't have it you pay more than the double than elsewhere .
It's a kind of gotcha, useless for someone who wants to visit or go through CH for 1-5 days, and for those who uses trains very occasionally or for short trips only.
Paying 175 CHF for 1 year makes no sense in this case.
Anyway, would be nice if they introduce a one week and/or one month half fare card in regard for these persons.

Last edited by John Maynard; November 25th, 2013 at 04:54 PM.
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Old November 25th, 2013, 04:53 PM   #2512
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As for the A13 Locarno-A2, I remember that the Ticinese refused it some time ago in a referendum for the Magadino plain.

Last edited by John Maynard; November 25th, 2013 at 04:59 PM.
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Old November 25th, 2013, 06:01 PM   #2513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
The all concept of half fare card is that the client subsidize for 1,2 or 3 years the CFF-SBB, to get finally as a reward a more expensive tariff, compared to full price (not to mention many additional discount offers) in neighboring countries. In fact, if you don't have it you pay more than the double than elsewhere .
It's a kind of gotcha, useless for someone who wants to visit or go through CH for 1-5 days, and for those who uses trains very occasionally or for short trips only.
Paying 175 CHF for 1 year makes no sense in this case.
Anyway, would be nice if they introduce a one week and/or one month half fare card in regard for these persons.
Tourists can get a one month Half Fare Card, but not that much cheaper than the one year version

http://www.swisstravelsystem.com/en/...e-card-en.html

83 GBP is about 122 CHF

Tourists generally get a Swiss Pass or Swiss Flexi Pass. For example 4 days Swiss Pass is 188 GBP = 277 CHF.

A cheaper option is an InterRail One Country Pass which is valid on SBB, RhB and a few other lines, but not valid on most other railways, buses or local transport. For 3 days that costs 103 GBP = 152 CHF. Same price as Benelux.

http://www.interrail.eu/interrail-pa...ss/switzerland
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Old November 25th, 2013, 06:33 PM   #2514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radamfi View Post
Tourists can get a one month Half Fare Card, but not that much cheaper than the one year version

http://www.swisstravelsystem.com/en/...e-card-en.html

83 GBP is about 122 CHF

Tourists generally get a Swiss Pass or Swiss Flexi Pass. For example 4 days Swiss Pass is 188 GBP = 277 CHF.

A cheaper option is an InterRail One Country Pass which is valid on SBB, RhB and a few other lines, but not valid on most other railways, buses or local transport. For 3 days that costs 103 GBP = 152 CHF. Same price as Benelux.

http://www.interrail.eu/interrail-pa...ss/switzerland
It's not worth at all to buy a one month half fare; IMO it should be at least half price of the 1 year version to become attractive.

If a traveler comes alone and travels every day in CH, it can be worth to buy a Swiss Pass; otherwise there is no interest.

InteRail is a European system (for European residents) and is available almost everywhere in Europe; it could be worth, as it apply a general price based on levels, not CFF-SBB "prices". Btw., you must reside on another country of where you're traveling.
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Old November 25th, 2013, 07:03 PM   #2515
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Even in the UK, which probably has more coaches (long distance buses in Britain are known as coaches) than anywhere else in Europe, you are only looking at a maximum of about 20 vehicles per hour on each of the main approaches to London.
Nowhere near that much, save maybe Heathrow - Victoria (as many of the coach routes funnel through Heathrow en route to London) and Oxford - Hillingdon Station - Victoria (where two or three companies offer turn-up-and-go service).

Large cities might have as many as 2 coaches an hour to London. Oxford is the exception, as the rail service goes a long-way-round via Reading, and the station isn't well sited for the city (nor is Paddington), and it's hinterland (as Oxford is impossible to drive into - the coaches add a call at a Park and Ride on the ring road to pick up traffic from the surrounding area - eg Witney, Kidlington, etc).

The UK Intercity rail network is too good (fast and frequent) to allow the coach network to be anything but a super-value alternative. If demand was less (or supply more), on the rails, then the coach network would struggle, due to the affordability of rail tickets in general (currently expensive as they can charge high amounts and still fill trains), and the number of the cheaper-priced tickets, being more.
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Old November 25th, 2013, 09:53 PM   #2516
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In this matter, we already have a special fund for roads; why not use it?
A new road fund is what will be discussed now. Some infos could be released already by the end of this year, I will post there as soon I know more.
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Old November 25th, 2013, 10:01 PM   #2517
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How many large motorway projects does Switzerland need after A9 & A16 are completed? Not that much I presume, maybe two or three large projects (such as A1 Gubrist Tunnel, second Gotthard Tunnel tube and A1 Genève - Lausanne widening), the rest are relatively minor widenings.

AADT map:
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Old November 25th, 2013, 11:08 PM   #2518
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AADT map:
Why the Simplon road is signed as U/C?
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Old November 25th, 2013, 11:17 PM   #2519
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It isn't. NZ denotes new traffic counters installed in 2012, not roads under construction.

The "big" projects still not financed but often discussed are:
A1 Morges bypass
A2 Lucerne bypass (maybe a widening with third tunnels? less likely than the others, IMHO)
A5 Biel-Bienne western bypass
A13 Bellinzona-Locarno
A20 Le Locle/La Chaux bypasses
Glatttal Autobahn & A53 missing link

Each of them will likely require at least 1 billion CHF (except Biel-Bienne bypass). The sort of A8 Brünig tunnel isn't know. Also the A4 will still have a gap after the opening of the Morschacher and Sisikoner tunnels.

A widening with a new tunnel is also planned in bern on the A6.
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Old November 25th, 2013, 11:42 PM   #2520
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A widening with a new tunnel is also planned in bern on the A6.
Do you have any details about this?
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